Unconventional upgrade (long)

McLoki

A friend is working on upgrading his system and has purchased an SVS sub and a Denon 3905 AVR. He is trying to consider what to upgrade next and has been getting alot of differing opinions from local salesmen compared to what he has read in various places. - The salesmans theory was source is most important, then wires, then reciever, finally speakers. He asked my opinion and this is my reply. I just wondered how unconventional (or just plain wrong) my advice is before I send him out checkbook in hand.......

My reply to his question -

That is a pretty common theme. Work on Source, then wires, then preamp, then amp, then speakers.

I tend to like the reverse of that. Listen to a ton of speakers and find some that you like. Find an audio store that lets you try different speakers with the best amplification that they have. If the store could not get speakers to shine, the best source and amplifier in the world wont help. (keep in mind that in stores like american where there are a ton of speakers in one room are not setup to show the speakers at their best. If you like the sound there, you should love the sound at home) Once you find the speakers you like, take em home and hook em up. If it doesn't sound the same as at the store - start working your way backwards on the list.

Amplifiers can make a huge difference, but not with all speakers. You have to purchase the amp to go right with the speakers. Some amps will work well with all speakers, some speakers with all amps but most speakers work best with a certain brand, type, or power of amplifier. I don't know why it makes such a large difference but it does.

Pre-amps are more stuble and can start to affect soundstage and minute details. I consider them as adding detail, not sparkle. (if it sounded bad before you added the pre-amp - you will just hear more baddness)

Cables I think of as more of a tweaking tool. It can help move the soundstage forward or back - maybe emphasize the bass or highs, but it won't dramatically change your sound. (once again purchase with what you are trying to tweak or correct in mind. More expensive is just different - not better for your situation.)

With most digital sources (dvd, sacd, cd, dvd-a) I would say they have similar effects as the pre-amp, but even more subtle. They are all trying to read what is on the disk and pass it on. I feel you will hit the point of diminishing returns pretty fast. I would say if you have decent mid-grade sources and are getting bad sound - look elsewhere to make it better. If everything is really close, but something is missing - give it a shot.

Its not the most conventional line of thinking for audio, but it makes sense to me.

So, what speakers do you currently have and have you heard them before (at a friends or a store) that almost made it an emotional experience for you? If not - start listening to other options and see what tripps your trigger. If you have and you just don't have the same sparkle that you remember, go back and list what they had that was different than what you have - and start investigating where the difference is coming from.

With the sub and AVR that you have, I would start by setting all your speakers to small and play with the crossover points. Cross over the speakers as low as you can and not create holes in the sound. (60hz or 40hz rather than the typical 80hz - If a speaker review states (I never really trust manufaturers specs all the way)that you get good bass down to 50hz - cross over at 60 - if they say you get bass into the 30hz range, cross over at 40. play with what you have and see what you like and what you don't.

I still say the best gear in the world, won't make speakers you you only like sound like ones you love.

The speakers you really love though will only sound great on sub-par equipment. (ok - depending on the amp it can still sound like crap, but you will hear that as soon as you hook them up - there will be no mistaking it.)

If you want more sparkle, bass, highs - whatever get the speakers that provide that first and then feed them what they need.

Michael

AsSiMiLaTeD

The salesmans theory was source is most important, then wires, then reciever, finally speakers.

I've never heard that approach and couldn't disagree more. I wouldn't be buying anything from that particular salesman...but that's just me...

I didn't read your entire reply, but the first paragraph appears to be heading in the general correct direction...

dragon1952

Speakers are the least important, LOL! :rolleyes:

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by dragon1952
Speakers are the least important, LOL! :rolleyes:

Yeah, I damn near shat myself when I read that...

opus

Thanks to McLoki for the help.


One small clarification is that the salesman said that my Denon is giving me more than enough good, clean power and that rather than add more power I should focus on the source and the transport. He said that he would be more than happy to sell me an amp but doesn't think that is my most immediate concern. ALso he didn't diminish the importance of speakers he just was listing the order in which he thought I should upgrade. In a way that is almost a compliment toward Polk:)
ALso to clarify, I am using rti70's, monter xp and a Onkyo 5 disc dvd player.

thanks for the input.......kevin

AsSiMiLaTeD

The order he gave you may definitely be a good suggestion given your particular system, given what you already have...we won't argue that much.

I took the statement in the original post to be a more generic statement and responded in kind.

With the Denon and those Polks, it sounds like you have a great start, very similar to my base system. I will say that adding my Parasound amp made more difference than any other upgrade though...

McLoki

I must have misunderstood. Sorry about that. I have heard that theory from multiple local dealers though. Source and wires $$ = AVR and speaker $$.

always sounded like a crap plan to me.....

Michael

PolkThug

For audio, speakers make the most measurable difference, so that's where I would spend my most money.

opus

Thanks all. Keep em coming.

I still have lots of listening to do but I am just curious if there is a consensus here.

kevin

F1nut

That's one salesman that knows what he's talking about. His advice to get a better source is spot on! Garbage in = garbage out.

McLoki

Originally posted by F1nut
His advice to get a better source is spot on! Garbage in = garbage out.

Out of curiosity. (concentrating mainly on sound for this discussion) For a digital format like a DVD player, what woud be a recommended minimum before you pass the Garbage in phase?

A new $100 player, $500, $1000? Where do you see the point of diminishing returns? (for me - Diminishing Returns = point where money would be better spent upgrading another link in the audio chain rather than making this link better - i.e. a $100 player and $900 amp vs $1000 player and his current AVR)

I am not trying to downplay your opinion, just understand it.

Michael

F1nut

Hmmm.....I missed the part about this being a DVD player. Is it used for DVD's only or for music too? If for music too, what percentage?

opus

80% movies/20% music with the Onkyo player and I also have a Pioneer Sacd/Dvd Audio player that I use for music.

My first priority is HT. I want it really loud and crystal clear:)

F1nut

I see. Since I'm a 2 channel kinda guy I can't really say if a different DVD player would make much of a difference for your preference. For music, yeah it makes all the difference in the world, IMO.

opus

I guess this is kinda like arguing which supermodel is hotter. I would be happy with any of them

So after reading everyones posts I have decided to just upgrade everything. Screw it. That ought to solve the problem. And I promise not to post any questions asking what the best _____ is. Overtime here I come

McLoki

Originally posted by opus
My first priority is HT. I want it really loud and crystal clear:)

I would say - Speakers first. (this is where you will pick up Clarity and loudness through efficiency)

Purchase for clarity (speakers) and pay attention to efficiency. The efficiency (and power handling) will help determine if you need an external amp to get to the loudness you want.

If the speakers you have now are pretty clear. (good enough for you anyway) go with a good amp to get the loudness you want. I would still audition some different speakers before you purchase the amp just to make sure what you currently have at home is the sound you want.

Michael

F1nut

Ok, I gave this some more thought and since a cdp and a dvdp are similiar, it stands to reason the better the player, the better the results. Of course, any set up is only as good as it's weakest link. In your case that would seem to be the dvdp.

opus

McLoki and F1 thanks.

LuSh

I'd second what the one dealer said. Garbage in Garbage out. What display device do you have? Your TV will only look as good as the picture the DVD player is feeding it. The majority of players under $200 really don't give that great a picture anymore. Ask the manufactures, if their honest (some of them are) they'll admitt it. A denon DVD player will give a great picture, more expensive units will allow for a great picture but improved sonics in music disc playback. With regards to speakers, it's not that they aren't the most important, they are for obvious reasons. But price does not dictate performance with regards to speakers. I've heard speakers that were much more expensive then others I've listened too and hated them, its subjective. Electronics are far less subjective and therefore generally the more money you spend the better quality of electronics you get. I've never heard a $3000 cd player that sounded "bad" but I have a speaker that has.

McLoki

Originally posted by LuSh
I've never heard a $3000 cd player that sounded "bad" but I have a speaker that has.

I have never thought of that, but you are correct. The thing I wonder about is If you spend even $1,000 or $1500 on a dvd player, is there actually that much difference between a decent $100 player?

I know there will be some improvement, but is it more than if you added $1000 somewhere else in the chain? I don't know the answer, but am curious where the most audible improvement would come from if you took speakers out of the equasion.

Is it always source? Cables? Pre/Pro? Amplifier?

In the grand scheme of things, is a $100-$200 dvd player the same level as a $1000 AVR? Look at all the threads on LSi sound and how many state to upgrade to separates rather than get a better DVD player and they will really sing?

Once again, not trying to be argumentative, but rather, just trying to understand your point better.

Michael

malikarshad

I had cheap Pioneer player for my Rti setup and it justified my setup.
I upgraded to LSi setup and still my cheapo player was good but it did not justify the LSi setup. So I upgraded to Denon 2900 and its worth the money for the LSi setup.
I believe your setup has to be balanced. I would not have bought Denon 2900 for my Rti setup and that's where I think comes the point of diminishing returns. The performance advantage I would have got out of Denon for my Rti setup won't justify the price of Denon. The LSi setup does it.
I did the speaker upgrade first and then the source and then the cables.....and now much more to follow
:rolleyes:

McLoki

Originally posted by malikarshad
I believe your setup has to be balanced.

I think that is the part that I was missing for some reason...

It makes alot more sense now. I think a DVD and CD player may be in my future...


Michael

opus

hmmm...............thinking..........thinking.......

McLoki

I still say if you want more clarity go with speakers that are more clear.
If you want what you have only louder, go with the amp.

If you are pretty happy with the sound you have and feel the speakers are reproducing all the information they are getting, the dealer should give you a few weeks at least to play with the DVD player at your home with your system.

One question though - If you are running your DVD player with a digital connection (to get 5.1-7.1) isn't you pre-amp/processor doing all the decoding? Will a more expensive DVD player actually pull more info from the disk? Video improvements I could see, but audio improvements with a dvd player????

Michael