imaging and bass speed

danger boy

Just this week i purchased my first ever pair of bookshelf speakers. (Athena AS-B1) cheap and decent sounding.

In my rig i use RT800i's for left and right fronts. I have always liked towers for their better bass output over bookshelves. That was until I brought home these Athenas.

The first thing I noticed was with these bookshelf speakers. is they are much better at imaging that the RT800i's are. Placement and toe in wasn't quite so crucial. I found they showed a wider sweet spot over the floorstanders.

Has anyone else who has used bookshelves noticed how much tighter and faster the bass is with bookshelfs over towers? I can understand why those people who like bookshelf speakers, do.

For giggles I turned on the SVS whilel listening in stereo only music. The SVS matches with the bookshelfs much better than the RT800i's. The towers appear to make the bass tougher to mate with the SVS. WIth the towers.. the bass seems sloppy to me now, that i've heard the SVS with bookshelfs.

The Athenas have their limts.. but for as inexpensive as they are.. they don't sound have bad. Have to watch the tweeter in those Athenas.. the highs are very forward on some material. Not enough quite to cause fatigue.. but damn close. The imaging is what sold me on the bookshelfs.

VR3

Are you sure your hearing *bass* and not *mid*bass...

THe RT35i, RTi70 all had a thing in common, *mid*bass kick, which was bass...that muddied the midrange but added 'punch' to the music. The RT5 didnt suffer from this problem, it had honest - straight forwards bass with dimensions other than a blur. My DTs show similar qualities to the RT5, just with alot more bass without sacrificing the mids...

The SDA also do like the RT5, lots of bass, no compromise of the midrange...

I've heard ALOT of towers that dont eff with the imaging...

Now - past that...

Are your towers toed in, facing you? If not, do it now and dont look back

danger boy

Sid,

yeah my towers are toed in.. but the sweet spot seems so narrow to me. While with the bookshelf Athenas.. it seems like a wider pattern. Could be because they are sitting on top of the towers. hee hee he. I kind of see what you mean about "stacking". sort of anways. I don't have all the speakers hooked up. just swapping out speaker wires.


It could be mid bass. you might be right here. I know towers in general will deliver more mid bass than bookshelfs will.

Maybe i'm hearing a different, bit more brighter tweeter in the bookshelfs.. and that's what i'm hearing. I guess after so many years of owning the RT800i's. My ears were longing for something else. A person's ears can get to used to hearing the same drivers over and over again.

I need to either clean my ears out more often.. or get some new speakers ever 6 months.

VR3

It sounds as if your towers are below ear level to you...

This is a bit harder to do with Polks as they don't include a 'nut' to adjust the spikes, but if you can find a way to tilt the speakers upwards *just a lil bit* so the tweeters on the 800i are firing ear level, it may help some...

Just sounds like you like your tweeters higher...

Another reason could your amp can power the bookshelfs easier than the towers...

Or it could be the bookshelfs are just better speakers??

It may be time for new speakers

Early B.

Your results aren't surprising. Many will disagree, but I will take a pair of bookshelf speakers and a sub over floorstanders any day for 2-channel audio. Why? Because of the bass. A good floorstanding speaker has to produce the full sprectrum of sound with a high degree of authority and clarity. That's asking a lot out of any speaker, even higher cost ones.

Additionally, a major factor with floorstanders is placement. Since good bass is highly dependent on placement, floorstanders offer limited options. On the other hand, there a variety of decent bookshelf speakers out there. Add a nice sub, determine the best placement, dial it in properly, and you're good. Probably equally or more cost effective than floorstanders, too.

I used to own a pair of RTi70's, RTi38's, and Rti10's, and for music I'd prefer the 38's with a sub over the boomy/muddy bass produced by the 70's or the 10's. However, I have floorstanders on my HT system that dig almost as deep as my SVS. It's great with HT because I love bass all over the place, but with music, they can be a tad boomy.

In terms of imaging, it may have been because the Athenas were "stacked" as you suggested. Again, it may be a placement issue and another reason to opt for bookshelf speakers. Now imagine if you had some higher quality bookshelf speakers....

My clairvoyance indicates that you will soon begin to suffer from an acute case of upgraditis.

steveinaz

The bookshelf "sound" can be very addicting. The bass lines are clean and solid, and usually cover the audible band of music well enough to forget they don't hit the lowest lows. One of my most enjoyable speakers was the Polk Monitor 5jr I had in 1991, they had a serious punch to them and fantastic soundstaging. What they lacked in deep bass, they more than made up for in impact.

If you like the AS-B1 that much, don't listen to the B2....

danger boy

yeah. the speed and recovery time for the bass for bookshelfs is quite good. much faster than floorstanders. I guess that's what i'm hearing now. less boominess and quicker response. It's interesting.

Sid,
Nope. these bookshelf speakers in terms of cost are not as good as the RT800i's. They are pretty much entry level. But yeah having them currently sitting on top of the floorstanders. does raise them up quite a bit. My floorstanders' tweeters are at ear level. I can try to tilt them back a little bit and see what happens. Maybe the tri lam tweeter isn't as revealing as other tweeters.

steveinaz

I've a little cheapie set of Advent calypso 2-way outdoor's out on my patio, I love listening those speakers. Very smooth and non-fatiquing.

danger boy

Last night I was listening to Santana - Supernatural concert in 5.1 DTS. with the Athena bookshelfs as mains, CS400i for center and FX300i for surrounds. the mains were much more detailed than the 800i's are. on yeah the SVS was turned on as well. I was quite happy with the sound. every once in a while.. the shrill or brightness from the bookshelfs was a bit much. but not to often.

VR3

Your findings arnt far from mine...

The RT35i didnt have near the detail of the RT5 and the RTi70 didnt have near the detail the RT35i had.

Polks forte dosnt seem to be their tweeters, except the replacement SDAs and that peerless everyone talks about.

The RT5 had excellent high end detail with not a big soundstage, a big drawback to an excellent speaker... incredibly well balanced, and very clean in most aspects.

steveinaz

Give them a while to settle in, and only about 15 degrees of toe-in. My AS-F2's though a touch forward, have never been harsh or overly sibilant. I've had great success with AQ cables and Athena's.

danger boy

Sid,
I guess since i've hardly every owne any serious speakers other than Polks. i got used to the sound. Now of course.. i want to try some other fronts. maybe even settling on some bookshelfs instead of towers. Maybe the current line up of Polks has better tweeters and detail.

Steve, the Athenas I got are used. so they are already broken in. I guess beteen those and what i'm used to.. i just got to used to their sound. which now seems pretty laid back. Of course other things come into play. source, and pre amp, amps, cables. but if all that is the same.. and the only thing I swapped out was the speakers.. then it would seem that the tweeters from different brands make a huge difference.

I guess i never experiemented with it much.

VR3

The RT line is nothing more than a big improvement of looks rather than Sound. They ALL sound similar, some look better than the others.

The only RT line that sounds 'better' to me, and dosnt have the same attributes of the others ones is the first one. Extremely clean, detailed speakers.

The current RT line isnt a step up, the LSi line would be a step up, but thats it.

IMO of course

Loud & Clear

Danger - midbass and bass are both muddy on the 800i's. They also aren't the most dynamic speakers. They come up on the short end in comparisons with the 55i's in all of the aforementioned categories. I could never really warm up to them as a result. I don't think your findings are a statement about floorstanders/bookshelves, but more a problem with the 800i's.

danger boy

L&C, i think you're right about the muddiness. i never even thought of that.. since i've never switched mine out for any other pair of fronts. but now that i've tasted something different.. i'm at least thinking of other options.

HBombToo

I owned 800i's and ran them at first off of an h/k520. I thought the same until I purchased the Outlaw 770. The amp made a huge difference and then came the twin CS+'s. I think its all about the amp.

twin

Loud & Clear

Originally posted by HBombToo
I owned 800i's and ran them at first off of an h/k520. I thought the same until I purchased the Outlaw 770. The amp made a huge difference and then came the twin CS+'s. I think its all about the amp.

twin

I'm sure the 800i's perform better with better amplification, but then so does everything else.

danger boy

why does this audio stuff have to be so dependent on so many different things? amps, sources, cables, wires, speakers, room acoustics, brain size, ears, etc.

Danny Tse

Well, it's a system. The system will only be as good as its weakest component. However, there're way to many variables to play with, so all you can do is to get what sounds good to YOUR ears and within YOUR budget. There will almost be something better out there.

scottnbnj

Originally posted by danger boy
why does this audio stuff have to be so dependent on so many different things? amps, sources, cables, wires, speakers, room acoustics, brain size, ears, etc.

heh heh,.. brain size. i always wondered what an old gf meant when she told me that the number of black boxes that a man needed to listen to music was directly disproportional to his peanut's size.

thanks for straightening that out for me.

)

carver "the receiver"
cambridge 540d
lsi9

heiney9

I bought the Athena AS-B1's for a second system and had them hooked to my main rig for about 10 days. I can tell you one thing I noticed is their lack of imaging. They throw a moderately "wide" soundstage, but are very flat with respect to the depth of that soundstage. However off axis they sound very good. Everything seemed to hang out right in front of each speaker. I think for an inexpensive speaker they have good imaging properties.

The midrange is very smooth and life-like. What you are probably refering to in bass is actually mid-bass. The Athena's, though admirable, don't go that low. When I swithced back to my RTA-11's I was amazed at how large the soundstage was, especially the depth. The Athena's are a great little speaker and with the right sub they would probably do a great job. I wish I could comment on your RT800's but can't say I've ever heard a pair. The Athena was no match for anything my 11's did. The 11's were better in every respect, by a lot in some cases, but I didn't expect the Athena's to out perform them anyway.

I wish my the rest of the damn equipment I bought would get here so I can get this 2nd system up and running. The Athena's are just sitting here waitng for the Nakamichi SR-3A to arrive!

Heiney9

danger boy

Heiney9,

I have to agree with all you said. True the Athena AS-B1's aren't a great speaker.. by any means. But for their meager price.. i haven't heard many others sound as good as these do.

Of course they can't be compared to say a pair of LSI 7's or even 9's. not even in the same league.

I got them for my computer rig. Which i've still yet to hook them up there. But will in the next week or so.

Now when I switch between the Athenas and the 800i's. The 800i's seem muddy and flat to me. I guess at some point replacing those will be on the list.

heiney9

Like I said in an earlier post I'd be just as happy with them if I'd spent $350. They really are a good little speaker. They have their limitations, but are very respectable at their price point. There isn't anything that can touch them for the price. I'd put them up against many other higher priced bookshelf speaker. Athena did a remarkable job giving these speakers the right balance of sound and value.

I agree the Lsi 7 & 9 are in a comletely different league. But since these are for my computer/office they will do just fine....probably better than fine! If anybody is looking for a very good bookshelf speaker at a ridiculous low price give the Athena's a try you will be pleasantly suprised.

Heiney9

danger boy

Heiney9,

I don't think you can really compare the Athenas with your RTA11's. totally different in so many ways.

BUt like you.. i've been impressed with what these little Athena AS-B1's can do for their price point. Bass is actually better than i thought it would be from such a small speaker.

AS-B1 review

heiney9

Danger Boy,

The review you put up a link for is the review that sold me on the Athena's. I was actually considering buying them from Audio Advisor for their inflated $180/pr price. Then I saw them on sale at Best Buy.

Heiney9