Something to read

Mazeroth · March 2005

I will not be posting on this thread. Just found some of it funny and thought I'd link to it for others to read. I'm sure flames will be shooting so if you want to avoid them, don't reply

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

unc2701 · March 2005

Feel the burn of the flames!!!

Seriously, it's got a few good points, but misses a few things. Like that tube amps distort at different harmonics and sound good when they do... or that biwiring doubles your wire guage and halves resistance...

steveinaz · March 2005

Sean---ROTFLMAO!!!

I'm sure the author is quite pleased with his "Grand Prix" boombox he got from Walmart...LOL.

PolkThug · March 2005

Originally posted by steveinaz
I'm sure the author is quite pleased with his "Grand Prix" boombox he got from Walmart...LOL.

Not exactly, look for Peter Aczel's reviews he's done over the years.

steveinaz · March 2005

You mean to tell me that the guy who says that a wire hanger with stripped ends sounds as good as exotic audio cables, and that there's no such thing as a "golden ear" and that digital harshness is a "figment" of our imaginations has a real system?

Then he too, is a fool, like the rest of us. Otherwise there's no "electrical" reason to not select the $49 Grand Prix boombox.

I'm a skeptic (and cheap), and still found that read to be a load of crap.

jdhdiggs · March 2005

Originally posted by steveinaz
that there's no such thing as a "golden ear" that read to be a load of crap.

Honestly, I've only ever met one, and she is not on this forum. She was an outside consultant brought in to do accoustics checks in the new (then) concert hall in Aspen, CO. She charged about $2K an hour and could filter out and hear all kinds of crap like loose screws on air vents with an orchestra playing. Of course she could just be playing a psych game, but she had everyone present very impressed.

PolkThug · March 2005

Originally posted by steveinaz
You mean to tell me that the guy who says that a wire hanger with stripped ends sounds as good as exotic audio cables,

Coat Hangers CAN work just as well as expensive digital interconnects.

"So just to recap this thing to death, we had: The professional Sony S7000TP reference DVD player, going to a 20 year old, ugly green, RCA patch cord which was cut in two. On one side of the green RCA I soldered a blue painted wire hanger to the shield and another to the center conductor. I soldered the other ends of the wire hangers to the other half of the ugly green RCA patch cord. We then clipped the alligator clips with thin wire to the centers and shields of the RCA connectors of my cable and of the Canare cable, and then plugged the other XLR-balanced side of the Canare into the Dolby Labs decoder. I honestly did not know how badly we would be rolling errors on this one... and with open, scientific minds, we played a DVD...

Are you all sitting down? Good. We played the King Crimson Deja VROOM DVD for over fifteen minutes with this configuration and not only did it sound good, but the Dolby Decoder reported ZERO errors... Did you all get that ok? ZERO, nadda, nihil, zippo, nothing, none... error-free."

Toxis · March 2005

What's next? All speakers sound the same, it's really just your mind playing tricks on you to make you THINK there's actually different sounds coming from each? Sounds like his logic...

AsSiMiLaTeD · March 2005

I'm not even going to read the whole thing...I'll just take the first and tenth lies:

1 - The Cable Lie - He argument is based on the assumption that the only thing that really matters is the signal, and that the signal doesn't know how its being transported. First, how a signal is transported has everything to do with 'what' is transported. Things like wire, sheilding, terminators, etc have a significant impact on 'what' it relayed from one end to the other. Would you rather drive across the country in a Cadilac or a Pinto? Sure, a Pinto 'may' get you there...but you're going to be better rested and in better overall condition if you have a comfortable trip. That's a stretch for a comparison, but is one nonetheless.

The argument that cables make no difference is a tired old argument that will never be settled. I did a blind test between my Audioquest, the Nordost Solars, and some crappy Monster stuff...a blind test. There was most asuredly a difference. If YOU can't hear it, then fine...but if I can nail it 10 out of 10 times during a blind test...then a difference DOES exist...plain and simple.

I think when we do the next Polk gathering in Sep, we should settle this debate. Ya'll can blindfold me, hook up different cables, and I'll guess the correct one EVERY time. If you can't hear a difference, then fine, but if 1 person (i.e. me) hears a difference, then you can't argue that a difference exists. Now as to whether those differences are significant or are to subtle for most to hear, and are worthy of cable upgrades...that's a different argument altogether...but I'm tired of the 'all cables are the same' crap...

2 - The Golden Ear Lie - His argument here is that no one has a golden ear, we all have the same hearing, just some people have training. And your point it???? So I have a golden ear, maybe I was born with it, maybe I did get it by training...who freakin' cares as long as I've got it!!! That's like saying "There aren't really any professional athletes, we're all born with that athletic ability, some people just chose to train and develop that ability'. WHAT??? Idiot...

By the way, its believed that all normal people are born with perfect pitch (you go to the piano and play any note or chord and I can identify it), but that most people lose that as they get older. That's why most people can learn music and develop perfect relative pitch (you play a middle C as a reference note, and then play another note and I can identify it because I know where it's at in relation to the middle C...counting half steps...).

I don't know if I have a 'golden ear' or not. I had horrible vision when I was a kid (blind in one eye, mostly in the second also, even with glasses) and I therefore had to develop my other senses to compensate. Hearing was the only one I developed to above normal abilities, and I do have really good hearing (far better than anyone I know) and have perfect pitch and am also very sensitive to room acoustics, rattlings, etc...enough that I can pass any of those blind tests everyone talks about...

I'm rambling...

I'm serious on the blind test at the next Polk gathering though...someone write this down and let's remember to do this at the next event...I'll happily be out 'test subject'

TheReaper · March 2005

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
...Would you rather drive across the country in a Cadilac or a Pinto? Sure, a Pinto 'may' get you there...but you're going to be better rested and in better overall condition if you have a comfortable trip. That's a stretch for a comparison, but is one nonetheless...

If the Cadillac is one of those "Seville diesels", I think I would rather drive my 1978 Mercury BobCat (Mercury's version of the Pinto).

PolkThug · March 2005

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
First, how a signal is transported has everything to do with 'what' is transported. Things like wire, sheilding, terminators, etc have a significant impact on 'what' it relayed from one end to the other.

Too bad in the home audio world this "significant impact" can't be measured.

Wish you lived closer, if you could pick your IC 10 outta 10 times, not only would you get free bbq, but also earn the nickname of DAREDEVIL. If not, you can still drink my beer and it would be fun anyway.

Regards,
PT

Loud & Clear · March 2005

Originally posted by Toxis
What's next? All speakers sound the same, it's really just your mind playing tricks on you to make you THINK there's actually different sounds coming from each? Sounds like his logic...

His article suggests that he feels otherwise about speakers, as he should.

I agree with, unc, that leaving out even and odd-ordered distortion made me question his objectivity.

Enjoyable article, and a pretty funny picture.

F1nut · March 2005

What a pant load! Just another crackpot. :rolleyes:

lomic · March 2005

Whew, I'm glad there were exactly 10 "Biggest Lies", say there had only actually been TWO - he'd, oh, I dunno - have to make the rest up to have a good article.

Good thing that didn't happen.

bikezappa · March 2005

Every thing in the article is true. It's just basic science. We all, me included, hate to admit we have been dupped.

I wish all you critics of the article would take the ABX test. I did and couldn't tell the differences. I must have bad ears.

Have you taken the ABX test?

Moving your head a few inches left or right can change what you hear when listening to music. It is easy to think that the $500 speaker wires were the result of the such a music change.

In EE EVERYTHING is a combintation of resistance, inductance and capacitance. The sum total of the three is called impedance. The impedance of inductance and capacitance depends on the frequency of the signal. Look up the formula for impedance and you will see that there is no negiligible capacitance or inductive impedance at audio frequencies in speaker wires. SIP.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of any thing but simple science. It's your money to spend.

Buy cables or music recordings.

AsSiMiLaTeD · March 2005

Originally posted by PolkThug
Too bad in the home audio world this "significant impact" can't be measured.

Wish you lived closer, if you could pick your IC 10 outta 10 times, not only would you get free bbq, but also earn the nickname of DAREDEVIL. If not, you can still drink my beer and it would be fun anyway.

Regards,
PT

Are you going to be at the next gathering? I'll bet you or anyone else that I can pick my IC out of a bunch 0 out of 10 or 1000 out of 1000 times (assuming that the lot is a groups of different ICs of course). I'll do you even one better, it doesn't even have to be my IC. You give me 5 ICs, let me listen to them all once to associate a sound with a given IC, and I'll be able to identify each correctly with 100% accuracy. I know because I've done this about a dozen times to prove to people that there is, in fact, a difference.

I'll wager whatever amount you're willing to bet that I can do this every time, without fail and 100% accurately. I really am dead serious about this...I REALLY want to do this at the next Polk meet.

BUT...there is 1 catch. When I am able to correctly identify the cables, you MUST admit that there is in fact a difference. This may be a difference that you can't hear, but if I can nail this thing 100 out of 100 times, then a difference must exist, no?

AsSiMiLaTeD · March 2005

Originally posted by bikezappa
Every thing in the article is true. It's just basic science. We all, me included, hate to admit we have been dupped.

I wish all you critics of the article would take the ABX test. I did and couldn't tell the differences. I must have bad ears.

Have you taken the ABX test?

Moving your head a few inches left or right can change what you hear when listening to music. It is easy to think that the $500 speaker wires were the result of the such a music change.

In EE EVERYTHING is a combintation of resistance, inductance and capacitance. The sum total of the three is called impedance. The impedance of inductance and capacitance depends on the frequency of the signal. Look up the formula for impedance and you will see that there is no negiligible capacitance or inductive impedance at audio frequencies in speaker wires. SIP.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of any thing but simple science. It's your money to spend.

Buy cables or music recordings.

See my posts in this thread. If you're at the gathering, I'll take your bet also...I'll wager any amount you're willing to bet.

I've done double-blind tests, dozens of times...there IS a difference!

jdhdiggs · March 2005

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Are you going to be at the next gathering? I'll bet you or anyone else that I can pick my IC out of a bunch 0 out of 10 or 1000 out of 1000 times (assuming that the lot is a groups of different ICs of course). I'll do you even one better, it doesn't even have to be my IC. You give me 5 ICs, let me listen to them all once to associate a sound with a given IC, and I'll be able to identify each correctly with 100% accuracy. I know because I've done this about a dozen times to prove to people that there is, in fact, a difference.

I'll wager whatever amount you're willing to bet that I can do this every time, without fail and 100% accurately. I really am dead serious about this...I REALLY want to do this at the next Polk meet.

BUT...there is 1 catch. When I am able to correctly identify the cables, you MUST admit that there is in fact a difference. This may be a difference that you can't hear, but if I can nail this thing 100 out of 100 times, then a difference must exist, no?

Cool, I'm game! I want to believe, I really do! Can I run the experiment- 2 cables, 20 changes. Lets make this as easy as possible, I'll bring some crap patch cord and we will use whatever the "best" other cable is. Then we will try same experiment with the AR and "best" cables. If you can statistiaclly get both tests right: There is a difference. Only 1 correct: Can not tell the differnce between properly constructed interconnects.

Great idea...!

unc2701 · March 2005

Damn! I want to watch! I'm on the fence, so I'm curious to see how this turns out. I'll even do the stats for free... Oh, and if I were you, I'd back off the 1000/1000 or 10/10 claim and just go for statistical significance- everyone goofs every now and then.

jdhdiggs · March 2005

Yup, I figured if he could do 15/20 twice, that's good enough for me.

I think it would be fun to "test" 5 or 6 people at the same time to get a bigger sample. If only one can do it, it says one thing (Got lucky, or there is a very minor difference and he has tremendous hearing), if all six make the cut, the difference is obvious.

My guess is CFrizz would test the best.

polkatese · March 2005

That would be entertaining!

If I have a crappy patch zip interconnect (that turn green in no time if exposed to the element), and a MIT S3 (which has the L-R-C Interface (the "box"), how can one argues that there is NO difference in sound?

AsSiMiLaTeD · March 2005

That sounds like a plan! We should have plenty of good cables to choose from if we're at Marks!

Just to clarify, I can't tell you which one is 'better', because that's subjective. But let me listen to each one once to associate the sound with the cable, and I'll pick 'em out as many times as you want. Oh yeah, and I assume this won't be an issue, but this has to be done on decent gear. It doesn't have to be high end or anything, I can do it every time with my system and all I've got is a Denon receiver/preamp, a Parasound HCA 1500 and some RTi70s. But we're not conducting this experiment on a bose wave radio or anything either.

We've definitely got to put some money on this deal though. I want all you anti-cable guys to put your money where your mouth is...I'll take any bet you can make. And no, this isn't some macho BS...I'd just like to have my trip up there paid for

bikezappa · March 2005

Great

Lets get the data.

A double blind test is the best because the person changing the cables doesn't know what wire is what. They are just labeled A and B.

I'd like to do the test also.

unc2701 · March 2005

Give me a few minutes I'll work out what the statistical significance is on that. Usual if you can do somethign that would only happen randomly %5 of the time than you say he has significance.

PolkThug · March 2005

I would love to see Polkmaniac do this, that would be so cool. I can't be there personally, but if everyone sees you do this, I'll believe it.

Reminds me of the piano tuners we had back in grade school, they were both blind.

polkatese · March 2005

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
That sounds like a plan! We should have plenty of good cables to choose from if we're at Marks!

Just to clarify, I can't tell you which one is 'better', because that's subjective. But let me listen to each one once to associate the sound with the cable, and I'll pick 'em out as many times as you want. Oh yeah, and I assume this won't be an issue, but this has to be done on decent gear. It doesn't have to be high end or anything, I can do it every time with my system and all I've got is a Denon receiver/preamp, a Parasound HCA 1500 and some RTi70s. But we're not conducting this experiment on a bose wave radio or anything either.

We've definitely got to put some money on this deal though. I want all you anti-cable guys to put your money where your mouth is...I'll take any bet you can make. And no, this isn't some macho BS...I'd just like to have my trip up there paid for

Can I put my money on you? what's the odd? how many non-believers here? (the more the better)...let's do it! I'll paypal you the money...

jdhdiggs · March 2005

That's why you go with the extreme test. Just to establish that there is a difference. Once that becomes the baseline, you can fine tune it. ex: $50 IC's = $500 IC's bot $5 IC's <> $50 IC's and etc... I would suggest using the passive pre that I am bringing at the switchbox as it is shielded and has no power supply or processing involve. this should give a cleaner signal out. I'd suggest that the test cables be split off of the CDP as it has the lowest line voltage (easiest to interfere with) and requires only one split versus 2 for any other setup.

Each "testee" picks one song. The IC is changed every 30 seconds at random, based on a coin flip. Each person picks if they think it's the good or bad. Go through all the songs and see how well everyone did.

unc2701 · March 2005

Oh and If I can make it there, I'll bring my bryston. They've got a rep as being the most analytical amps out there, so if a difference exists, you'd hear it on a bryston.

jdhdiggs · March 2005

Double blind would be a bit harder to pull off as someone would be staring at the switch box. Who would install the cables and not tell anyone?

I agree with PM-Better is totally subjective. Cable "A" would always be defined as the first played.

AsSiMiLaTeD · March 2005

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
Yup, I figured if he could do 15/20 twice, that's good enough for me.

I think it would be fun to "test" 5 or 6 people at the same time to get a bigger sample. If only one can do it, it says one thing (Got lucky, or there is a very minor difference and he has tremendous hearing), if all six make the cut, the difference is obvious.

My guess is CFrizz would test the best.

Two things:

1 - It'll be 20/20...guaranteed. Can you hear the difference between a set of good Polks and a pair of crappy Bose? I bet you can. Could you identify each correctly 20/20 times? I bet you can. The difference with cables is that significant and that easy to identify for me. Hell, I've even compared cables by the same company (did a side-by-side with some AQ Sidewinder and Copperhead cables) and been correct 100% of the time. If I only get it 19/20 times...then fine, statistics will support the theory that there is a difference...but I still lose the bet.

2 - You can test other people, as many as you want...that's fine. But, when I am a perfect 20/20, I don't want to hear anything about being lucky or any of that stuff (I'm saying this now because you've already mentioned it in your post). IF there's still doubt after a 20/20 success, then we'll do more until there is no doubt.

Keep in mind, I'm not setting out to prove that there is a BIG difference in cables or that said difference is worth x amount of money...that's subjective to your hearing and your budget. My only goal is to dispell the myth that there is no difference in cables...

jdhdiggs · March 2005

Originally posted by unc2701
Oh and If I can make it there, I'll bring my bryston. They've got a rep as being the most analytical amps out there, so if a difference exists, you'd hear it on a bryston.

That would be nice, but Doro's BBQ amp has a noise floor that is non-existant it's so low. We were cranking some tunes and during quiet passages, nothing was heard...

Speakers and CDP will be the hardest things to agree on IMHO

Something to read

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