7.1 surround speaker selection.

maxwell36

Hello all, I have a few questions on what kind of speakers to get for a 7.1 home theater setup.

These where the speakers that where recommended to me by a local electronics store.

For the front left and right. Polk Monitor 50s

For the rear left and right. Polk Monitor 50s

The center. Polk CS2

The mid left and right. Polk Monitor 30s

And for the sub. Polk PSW505

The Dimensions for the room are 18 feet long 14 feet wide and 7 feet high.

I know this is a small room so I plan on building in bass traps as well as sound diaphragm panels on the walls.

My first question is are these really the speakers that I need?

Secondly can the front two monitor 50s be recessed into a cutout in the wall on both sides of the screen with out damaging sound quality?

And thirdly what is di/bi pile and do I need to worry about it?

Thank you all in advance for helping me out with this.

lomic

Welcome to the forums!

First off, what is your budget? That will have the largest impact on what we recommend And also what % of music and movies will you be enjoying?

Second, recessing speakers into the wall will have a negative impact on sound quality, and it will likely be profound.

And third you can read about Bipole/Dipole here:

http://www.polkaudio.com/home/technology/bidipole.php?category=6&speaker=355

depending on your budget, these type of speakers in Dipole mode usually make for better side surround speakers than direct radiators like Monitor 30's

maxwell36

This home theater is intended to serve as an all around entertainment center their will be some music played through it but mostly DVDs and TV. I do not want to spend more than $2000 on the speakers.

PS do you have any recommendations on receivers?

wingnut4772

If you are going to wall mount your surrounds then bipole/dipole speakers are a good choice. If not, you wont be able to take advantage of the whole 'poling' thing.

I use towers as surrounds and they sound better than FXi30s did in the same spot because I don't have wall space on each side take advantage of the reflecting properties of the FX series.

I even confirmed this with tech support at Polk and the gentleman there said he steers customers away from the FX surrounds if they will not be wall mounted.

As you can see in my set up I saved my surround for back speakers where I have -tah da- a wall.

lomic

Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with the new Monitor series in terms of performance, but I haven't heard any rave for them at all, so I'd go with the RTi line - do you have a dealer in your area that carries them?

For a focus on HT with $2000 here's what I'd buy

Front: Polk RTi8 $700
Center: Polk CSi5 $400
Surround: Polk FXi3 $350
Subwoofer: SVS 25-31 PCi $550

There's $2000 of pretty kick **** sound to start out with. Since this is your first time here you might not know about SVS, they are one of the most respected subwoofer manufacturers around, their website is www.svsubwoofers.com - you will learn pretty quickly that Polk subwoofers are unfortunately not well respected... while ok for beginners, if you can avoid making that beginners purchase, you'll be better off.

You'll also note I didn't include rear surround speakers for 7.1 - skip them for now. You'll be happier in the long run if you get fewer speakers of better quality. The impact of 7.1 vs. 5.1 is minimal anyway.

For recievers you'll get a lot of recommendations, again without knowing how much budget you have slated towards this it's hard to say. My first recommendations would be Denon and Harman/Kardon. For Denon look at the AVR 1705 and 2705, for H/K the AVR 235 and 335. Both these brands promise good future compatability if you decide to get a seperate Power Amplifier for your speakers in the future. Definitely get the best one you can afford, as floorstanding front speakers will sound best when powered well.

wingnut4772

I have to agree with Iomic that you are better off getting better quality speakers for your budget by going with a 5.1 system for now but I strongly disagree that a 6.1 or 7.1 configuration makes a minimal difference.

I have 7.1 and it makes a HUGE difference in my movie enjoyment (Prologic IIX) from 5.1 or even 6.1 ( which I also had). So keep that in mind for the future but for now 5.1 is fine.

What kind of budget are we talking for a receiver? There are a lot of nice ones to be had new or used on every budget level.

maxwell36

Well harman kardan was my first choice the AVR335.

So you are telling me that the monitor series are not what i want?
and the recomindation is...

Front: Polk RTi8 $700
Center: Polk CSi5 $400
Surround: Polk FXi3 $350
Subwoofer: SVS 25-31 PCi $550

first off if i am going to do some thing i might as well do it right so i would like to make it 7.1. Can i use the RTi8s as rears also? And polk makes bad subs?

here is a render of what the room will look like when i am finnished.


as you can see that is what i was planing to do with the front speakers. but i will change my design if you all think it will down grade audio quality.

Nelson57

Hey Maxwell,

Welcome to the forum. You will find a great deal of wisdom from many of the members here. I also agree with Iomics recommendations for your budget.

I made the move from the Monitor Series to the RTi series, and have fuller richer sound in my HT, the Monitors are not bad, but the RTi family is definately a step up.

reeltrouble1

Originally posted by wingnut4772
I strongly disagree that a 6.1 or 7.1 configuration makes a minimal difference.

I have 7.1 and it makes a HUGE difference in my movie enjoyment (Prologic IIX) from 5.1 or even 6.1 ( which I also had). So keep that in mind for the future but for now 5.1 is fine.

Wingnut is giving you good advice, Max, I find a huge difference in 6/7.1, their are a number of discs that have a discreet 6th track for the rears, leaving those speakers out you will not be hearing all the information on the software disc. Go for at least 6.1, or 7.1, if you dont like the way it sounds, try 5.1 by turning two of the speakers off and hearing the differences, if you like the 5.1 then take the other two speakers back, whether they be the sides or surrounds. Your room is not large so you might like 5.1 better. I find Fx speakers on the side set to dipole and direct firing in the rear work best in my set up, yours though may be different. I would never have a system that could not play all the information off of a disc.

As far as polk subs, well I like mine, but the concensus round here is for SVS and HSU some have paradigm a few nice sunfire's in the mix. I would not hestitate to get an SVS if you can fit it in your budget, lots of folks report great results with them. Their are better subs but they cost big bucks.

I would not recess my front sound stage into any walls etc.

Let me add my welcome to the Club, lots of good folks here, along with lots to learn.

RT1

lomic

Ok, I'll admit the 2 rears can make a difference, I was just trying to talk him down from doing something silly like downgrading from RTi8's to 6's in order to afford rear surrounds

Next up - the design of your room. Wow... that's pretty big. Again recessing the speakers into the wall, now that i see how you have it there is no doubt in my mind it will seriously compromise your front soundstage. Though I am having a cool thought!:

Since you're using a huge front projection screen I would see your best results being placement of all your front speakers BEHIND the screen. Of course, you'll have to spend a bit of payola to get a screen that will allow the sound to pass through properly, but I think it would be worth it. This would give you a true movie theater setup, and would fix the problem I can already see of your center channel being too high.

Just what are the dimensions of this room? Given how much it looks like you're spending on the room alone (and of course I don't know your complete situation here, but) I really think you should do whatever it takes to alocate more money to your speaker and audio component budget. Just from your rendering, it looks like you'll need $4-5k to fill a room this size with sound and bass that will do it proud.

maxwell36

The Dimensions for the room are 18 feet long 14 feet wide and 7 feet high.

alright now that you have seen what the room looks like and know the demensions could you all recommend a sub and recever ect. you say put the speakers behind the screen? where can i get screen material? the screen size is 8 feet by 4.5 feet 16/9 ratio.
how do i fix the problem with the center being so high, can i mount it below the screen?

thanks for the extra help guys.

lomic

Ok, that's the same size as my living room, which isn't very big - I guess the rendition just makes it look larger.

Thinking more on the speakers behind the screen idea, if the room isn't actually that big - and given the insane price you're bound to pay for the type of screen I was talking about (even though I don't know exactly who makes them, I've just read about them somewhere), I think you'll be best just putting your front L/R on either side of the screen (again, not in the wall and buy a speaker stand for your center channel. I know it looks much better having everything mounted inside the wall, but I think anyone will tell you to avoid this.

The H/K 335 will do well for you in my opinion, if you liked this model already, I'd say go for it. You could use the RTi8's as rear surrounds, but I really think it's overkill since rear surrounds are suppose to create ambiance rather than grab your attention 90% of the time. Plus it would be hard to get them on the same plane as your side surrounds. Grab RTi6 or RTi4 for rear surrounds, combined with the FXi3's I think you'll be happy and not too far over budget.

Again, for subwoofer I really can't recommend anything for HT besides SVS. Seriously, buy the most expensive sucker you can afford if you like bass, I'll give you a quick breakdown of their sub line:

First off, when you look at their model numbers such as 25-31 PCi..... 25 is the lowest frequency to which this sub generally responds, 31 is the height of the cylinder, and PCi is the model name which indicates the quality of the woofer and the amp it uses.

There are 3 different variations for each "model" in terms of low-end response floor. 25Hz, 20Hz and 16Hz. As you go down in frequency, the sub as a whole puts out less bass. So if you're just looking at the PCi model, the 25-31 will deliver the biggest Punch, but the 16-46 will give you Infrasonic bass you can't hear but just feel in your bones, and the 20-39 is a compromise between the two (since infrasonic bass isn't very common, 20Hz is still very low but maintains the overall sub strength)

If you go up to the PC-Plus model, however, the 16-46 will still give the cool infrasonic bass, but will still play very loudly across all the bass frequencies, and the 25-31 model will begin to knock you on your ****.

If you can afford it, the PC-Ultra model will knock you off your **** tuned at 16Hz, and at 20Hz will likely shatter your bones.

I won't even go into their multi thousand dollar subs that will make your head explode I'm one of those who believes the quality of your subwoofer makes or breaks the entire system, hence my obsession.

So as a final tally of my recommendation:

Front: RTi8
Center: CSi5
Surround: FXi3
Rear Surround: RTi4 or 6
AVR: H/K 335
Sub: The best SVS you can afford without having to pay off credit cards with other credit cards

In the end I am just one man, only been into this stuff for about a year, so seeking other recommendations might do you well as I'd hate to be held responsible if something goes bad You are making me want to get into professional HT installation though!

Nemesis

My opinion: Dennon is better if you listen to more music or 50/50 music and movie. H/K better for movies (Dennon's sound is IMO too mellow).

I can certainly recommend H/K for receiver, but which model is a little bit sticky. The 235 and 335 are both 7.1; however, the 335 has an extra feature for multi room use. Basically you can put your rear speakers in another room and play music in taht room while you do something else in your regualr HT room (ie watch movie, listen to other music) in 5.1. That's the only major difference between the two. Things like a slightly more advanced EasySet remote, 1 more set of component and coaxil, and a few more ANALOG imputs. I listened to both when i was shopping for my receiver: sound quality is the same on the same speakers (the 5 watt difference per channel is negligable). Both have a full array of pre outs for amps if you really need more power anyway... Both are worth the money, but in the end I went 235 because I didn't need the extra room capability.

Your center needs to at least CSi3. The 5 is signifigantly better, but it is almost $200 more.

Go RTi line It's only a little more money for very real impovements for performance.

Toxis

Just FYI, you keep talking about putting towers as your rears (or surround backs) and putting small bookshelves as your sides (surrounds). The problem with this is your sides (when in a 5.1 setup) would be your actual rears and your surround backs with the huge towers would be getting very little sound in comparison. I would highly recommend going with FXi3's for sides and a pair of RTi4's for the surround backs. That way you have great speakers without spending an arm and a leg on your rear effects (for now). Ideally, if it was me, I'd get the 8's up front, 5 center, and FXi5's for sides. This way you can enjoy a 5.1 surround setup and if you feel you still want to add two more speakers (or if the wife doesn't scream at you for the idea), then you can add them later. Better to do it once and right than to keep upgrading to get the sound you were looking for.

I would agree with some from above and highly recommend the Denon receiver (2805) over the HK. HK is a great receiver but IMO, they're very warm and don't really give me the sound I like for a HT. They're more of a laid back receiver on all sources. I still like the denon over the hk's because they not only have much better highs than the hk (which helps add the aggressiveness you want for HT) but they also sound much better for music. The depth and staging is much better from my A-B comparisons... and I've been selling both for about 2 years now.

maxwell36

Al right a big thanks for helping me avoid a bad first time purchase, this is the set up I am going to go with.

Front RTi10s
Center CSi5
Surround FXi5s
Rear RTi6s
Receiver HK 335, I like the multi zone feature.
The sub I need to do more research on.

My plan is to control everything from a windows media edition PC that I am building, in my opinion this is a much better option than a DVR.

I know this might be a strange question but is their any way to ad additional zones to the receiver? It would be nice to have sound in other areas of the house.

I am so glad I decided to come to this form the knowledge of its members is most impressive and I intend to become a regular here.

thanks again

stringman57

Originally posted by lomic
Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with the new Monitor series in terms of performance, but I haven't heard any rave for them at all, so I'd go with the RTi line - do you have a dealer in your area that carries them?

For a focus on HT with $2000 here's what I'd buy

Front: Polk RTi8 $700
Center: Polk CSi5 $400
Surround: Polk FXi3 $350
Subwoofer: SVS 25-31 PCi $550

There's $2000 of pretty kick **** sound to start out with. Since this is your first time here you might not know about SVS, they are one of the most respected subwoofer manufacturers around, their website is www.svsubwoofers.com - you will learn pretty quickly that Polk subwoofers are unfortunately not well respected... while ok for beginners, if you can avoid making that beginners purchase, you'll be better off.

You'll also note I didn't include rear surround speakers for 7.1 - skip them for now. You'll be happier in the long run if you get fewer speakers of better quality. The impact of 7.1 vs. 5.1 is minimal anyway.

For recievers you'll get a lot of recommendations, again without knowing how much budget you have slated towards this it's hard to say. My first recommendations would be Denon and Harman/Kardon. For Denon look at the AVR 1705 and 2705, for H/K the AVR 235 and 335. Both these brands promise good future compatability if you decide to get a seperate Power Amplifier for your speakers in the future. Definitely get the best one you can afford, as floorstanding front speakers will sound best when powered well.

Iomic, look at my signature. We think alike. I just got the audio stuff set up this week and love it. The Yamaha RX-V2500 is nice. I chose it over the Denon 3805 for ease of use(wife). Calibrated it last night with Avia and a new Radio Shack sound meter. Good choices.

Toxis

Originally posted by stringman57
The Yamaha RX-V2500 is nice. I chose it over the Denon 3805 for ease of use(wife).

I have to admit, this is the first time I've ever heard this. Seems to me that industry wide, Denon seems to be a little more user friendly. I know when I sold Yamaha about 2.5 years ago, they were the second worst receiver to deal with (second only to Sony). It's good they're finally changing that aspect.

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by maxwell36
Secondly can the front two monitor 50s be recessed into a cutout in the wall on both sides of the screen with out damaging sound quality?

Hi Max,

Floor standing speakers can be concealed behind an acoustically transparent screen wall without hurting the sound, but they can't be recessed into a solid wall without a negative impact.

Your rendering resembles my home theater. Click on the link in my signature to see how you can achieve the same affect and still have good sound.

I'm a big fan of 7.1 sound and a Hardon Karman receiver is a good choice. They have a surround process called LOGIC7 which is exceptional. It intelligently extracts stereo surround back channels, from 5.1 or 6.1 sources.

Good luck.

Larry

HBombToo

Originally posted by Larry Chanin
They have a surround process called LOGIC7 which is exceptional. It intelligently extracts stereo surround back channels, from 5.1 or 6.1 sources.

Good luck.

Larry

Larry I have to play the devils advocate here.

Logic7 sucks in my opinion.

two channel is most revealing in all cases.....!!!

1/2twin:p

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by HBombToo
Larry I have to play the devils advocate here.

Logic7 sucks in my opinion.

two channel is most revealing in all cases.....!!!

1/2twin:p

Hi Henry,

Well, I've never heard of a two channel home theater before. I guess there's a first for everything. I guess Max will be able to economize and save on all those speakers and multi-channel processing.

Larry

lomic

Logic7 sucks in my opinion.

While I'd never use Logic7 for music, I find it to be the superior processor over PLIIx or Neo:6 for TV watching, though I doubt he'll be doing much of that in this dedicated HT

wingnut4772

I have never heard Logic but PLIIX is mighty sweet and it sounds excellent for music too.

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by lomic
While I'd never use Logic7 for music, I find it to be the superior processor over PLIIx or Neo:6 for TV watching, though I doubt he'll be doing much of that in this dedicated HT

Originally posted by wingnut4772
I have never heard Logic but PLIIX is mighty sweet and it sounds excellent for music too.

Hi Iomic and Darla,

I found Henry's comment bashing LOGIC7 and preferring two channel listening in a thread started about putting together a 7.1 home theater to be a little off topic, but he's certainly entitled to his opinion.

I have a Lexicon digital processor which is also an Harman International product. It's sort of like a big brother to all their receivers. Anyway to me the Lexicon folk's LOGIC7 process is truly amazing and it also has a music mode which may be implimented in some of their receivers that permits the owner to tweak the surround parameters more than in movie mode.

My processor has the option of selecting a number of surround modes including PLII music and PLII movies, and they are very good. The processor also has many different LOGIC7 modes for listening to various venues, i.e., movies, music, TV, Film, Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. I prefer to use the applicable LOGIC7 mode.

Larry