Car systems 101

Shawshanks · March 2005

I'm getting a 2005 4runner and want to upgrade the sound system in there. i'm aware of what brands are good (somewhat) and what to stay away from. currently in my 89' honda civic, i've got a kenwood deck and amp w/ mb quarts components and coaxs, love the mb's but also like the polks... in the new 4runner, i'm planning on running an alpine deck and amps and use polk momo speakers all around. i am more into clarity w/ a little thump but nothing that will rattle the neighbors windows. so i'm thinking about getting coax 6.5's in the doors and running something small like a 10" sub in a sealed or ported box. so questions are: with what i've suggested, would that be a good start? if the 6.5's say that their power handling is 80w contin at 4ohms, will a 4 channel amp at 75w x 4 @ 4 ohms be good enough to power the speakers and not damage them or perform less than ideal? the alpine deck says that it has 50w x 4 power, should i use the deck power or not and just get a 4 channel amp? again, i need simple and basic answers. i was reading a couple of the questions and responses, although very helpful and full of knowledge, some of it just went past my head.

i know i've got other questions and will probably think of them later, but at least this gets me started.

thanks in advance, i want to join the polk/momo family.

AustinKP · March 2005

Sounds like you're on the right track. An amp at that power level would be just perfect for those speakers. Stay away from deck power since the 50x4 listed is peak. RMS will be around 15-20W per channel.

neomagus00 · March 2005

welcome to la famille!

i like the setup you're thinking of, but consider using only front speakers, and if you can afford them (and, importantly, proper amplification), absolutely go with components.

a note on your sub: you mentioned you want a little bump, but noting big. consider a 12" sub. while it will be capable of being louder than a 10", that is easily controlled, and a 12" sub will be able to pull out the really deep stuff better than a 10". also, for what your tastes appear to be, a sealed box is likely the choice for you.

and an agreement with austin; if at all possible, always go with external amplification, because decks are weak and dirty

.

a 75 x 4 amp will probably be too much for 80W components. That 80W is quoted for the mid/tweet pair, so if you use a 4 channel to biamp (a good idea), you really only need a 50x4 amp.

finally, what's your budget for the project? we can make much better reccomendations when we know how much you want to spend.

p.s. if any of that sounds like a foreign language, just ask and we can clarify

.

MacLeod · March 2005

Welcome to the club bro.

Components may be a better option than coaxials in the front for a couple reasons. Components use seperate tweets and mids so you have much better flexibility in placement and this affords better imaging and staging. Also, components usually have better quality parts and materials and this is especially true in the crossover. If however youre just wanting a plug and play system or dont really want the hassle of a more complex install then coaxials are fine.

Rear speakers arent necessarily a bad idea. Most purists (me included) dont like em cause they not only pull the stage to the rear but tend to smear the detail by having the same music hitting your ears at different times. However if you haul passengers around a lot and listen to CD's then rears can be a way to go.

An 8" sub will be ok but I prefer 10's myself. I think they offer the best sound quality and impact and since its going to be inside the car with you, you wont need much bigger.

Cant go wrong with Alpine amps and head units. Especially if you go with the Alpine V12 amps. But if youre going to be spending in that range check out the Polk line of amps. Just as good but a little more rare.

Shawshanks · March 2005

man this is the 4th time i'm typing this response, this is killing me...lol

thanks again for the warm welcome as well as the help, insight and experience on car audio information.

based upon what i've read i'm definitely going w/ a seperate amp for the door speakers. now what would be the pros/cons of getting a single 5 channel amp vs. getting 2 seperate amps (not factoring in space and price)? i'm looking at the ususal brands like alpine, jl, mtx, rock fos, etc.... but am i missing out on some lessor known brands at a lower price point but perform just as well as the big name brands? any brands to recommend? i'm looking to spend b/w $150-200 for each amp (if i go the 2 amp way), mostly looking on ebay for these.

since its a new car i really don't want to drill any new holes in the doors just yet, i haven't even received the car yet, still being shipped up from CA. but i'm wondering if there is a seperate tweet area on the doors near the side mirrors, if so then i'll go w/ seps for the front door and coaxs for the rear door. i heard the polk seps and they didn't sound as good as some of the other brands. i hope that they were set up incorrectly and they fix the problem, but the infinity reference speakers sounded great. i'll go w/ a 10" polk/momo sub in a closed box, something not too big so that i can still fit the golf clubs.

thanks again for all of the help and info. i look forward to reading more of your responses and getting ideas so that i can get my ride runnin and bumpin...

MacLeod · March 2005

I actually prefer 5 channels and kick myself at least twice a day for not getting one. Crossfire makes a 5 channel thats 50x4 + 300x1 which is EXACTLY what Im running now with my 2 amps. :rolleyes:

5 channels are easier to install and take up less room but can be just as powerful.

Alpine makes this 5 channel but its not very powerful in the sub channel. I recommend getting a hybrid amp that is A/B in the main channels and Class D in the sub. This Kicker is one like that. Its very powerful, 70x4 + 420x1 provided youre using the MM2104DVC. This is the one I would recommend. MTX made a badass 5 channel but, alas, its been discontinued.

Shawshanks · March 2005

Mac... thanks for the suggestion and i've been looking online at some of the kicker amps and impressed w/ what they've got. i guess what i need to do is look at the 4runner and see if it will fit, i kinda don't want to build anything, i want it to look as if nothing is in the car w/ the exception of a detach face plate.

besides watts and rms, what other things should i be looking for when shopping around for amps? i'm seeing x-overs, freq response, high/low pass, etc... now i maybe asking for something i may not understand, but i'll take my chances.

neomagus00 · March 2005

better to ask than make a mistake... i learned that the hard way a few times...

the features you'll need in an amp depend on the headunit and the amp's intended use. you'll be biamping, so you'll need a relatively complex crossover system on the amp. you'll need one pair of channels with a really high highpass (~3500 Hz), one pair that you can fake into bandpass (actually pretty easy - lowpass on the amp at 3500 Hz and highpass on the HU at ~80 Hz; that way you only need 2 preouts), and the sub channel of a 5-channel amp will have a lowpass (and a subsonic/infrasonic highpass is good here too).

the key is to find an amp that has separate crossovers for each pair of channels.

the frequency response of an amp is irrelevant, they're all essentially the same here.

what model headunit are you looking at? or, if you don't know, what's your budget and needs?

MacLeod · March 2005

The thing with great crossovers on amp is that they tend to make the amp cost over $500 and you really dont need them.

If youre going to run rear speakers then you definitely dont need them. Just use the supplied x-over that comes with the speakers.

If youre going to go with fronts only then I suggest bi-amping. I would also suggest the MMC6500 component speakers which are the best speakers you can get for that money and their x-over is bi-ampable so you would have to worry.

Other than that, the only considerations in buying an amp is power requirements, size and cost. All amps within the league of MTX, Rockford Fosgate, JL Audio, Hifonics, Kicker and such are going to have good build quality and make clean power. Dont let anybody talk you into buying a certain amp cause it sounds "warmer" or has "smoother highs" cause they all sound the same!

Shawshanks · March 2005

Neo... thanks for the info. maybe a dumb question but does "bi-amping" mean that i'm going to run two seperate amps or does it refer to a 5 channel amp and doing something special w/ it? as for the head unit i'm leaning towards either the alpine 9847 or 9851.

Mac... thanks for the heads up on getting sukered into "warmer" or "smoother highs", i'll definitely keep that in mind. sometimes i may make things more difficult than they really are.

does anyone know of any websites that give objective reviews on car audio equipment?

phuz · March 2005

I've got an 05 4Runner Sport, and yes, it does have a seperate place for the tweeter(s). Components would work well for you. I'm about to change the jumpers on my crossovers to lower the level of the tweets because they are high up on the door, and it's a bit overbearing considering that the 6.5" driver is down near the floor. Thats something you might want to keep in mind when you do your install.

Factory speakers are 6x9, with a seperate tweeter. I put some 6.5" components in with an MDF adapter. Mounted the crossover(s) in the door, and viola.

Rear door spealers are 6.5" I think. I dunno, I didn't do anything with em.

My amps are under the front seats. If you want to do that you'll have to remove the vents from under the seats, no biggie. People in the back don't need heating/cooling on their feet.

Doubt you'll be able to fit a 5 channel amp under there though. heh

A single 12" sub will do fine, in fact mine is overkill. A quality 10" will do.

Keep up with this thread plz. I'd like to see what you do with your 4Runner.

neomagus00 · March 2005

yeah, mac, that was good advice

shawshanks - bi-amping means that, instead of running components (which are just 2 separate speakers instead of them being mounted together) off of 2 channels of an amp and running that through an external crossover, you run each speaker (2 mids and 2 tweets) off its own channel. this makes the setup infinitely more tunable in the tweeter-loudness area, which phuz says is a concern in the 4runner (and is a definite issue with the polk components, too; the tweets are very loud).

like phuz said, it's unlikely that you'll be able to fit a 5 channel amp anywhere but in the back somewhere... i dunno where you'd put it, i've never done an install that it didn't go in the trunk.

those HUs will do you well; i can't see a difference between them in specs, so i guess aesthetics is the key here. they do have bbe though, that makes me happy.

Shawshanks · March 2005

the 4runner is finally in and i'm going to pick it up tomorrow!!!

the thing that sucks is that i'm going back home to hawaii for at least a month and i'll only enjoy my new ride for about a week and i won't be able to put the sounds in till after i get back, but oh well....

phuz... i'll have to check my 4runner, i've got the sr5 w/ the stock system so i don't know if mine will have that seperate tweet section. good call on the tweets being too high and maybe a bit overbearing, i'll definitely keep that in mind. but definitely i'll keep this thread going for as long as i can and keep peeps posted on what i'm going to do.

neo...ahhhhh!!! that helps a lot in trying to understand more of this technical stuff and helping me try to make the right decisions when hooking up my system. i guess w/ the time back home, i'll be able to go to several car stereo shops and do some testing w/ seperates and see which ones would work best and give me the sound quality i want. as for the hu's, i've always wanted an alpine since i was in high school and now i can get one. i've always had like pioneer or kenwood, not bad decks but there was just something about alpines that makes me go oooohhhh, aaaaahhhhh...

can't thank you guys enough for the info and help. much appreciated!!!!

MacLeod · March 2005

The short version of bi-amping is you run your tweeters off the front channels and the mids off the rear channels of a 4 channel amp.

Whatever you do, find a place to listen to some MMC6500s. They are excellent speakers and can easily compete with speakers costing much much more.

I know what you mean about Alpines. Only the "cool" people had them when I was in high school so now I wanna be cool too!

Shawshanks · March 2005

I just got the 4runner today and just my luck, the transportation company who shipped it up placed a deep gauge on the driver side door below the key hole about an 1.5" long and down to the bone. needless to say i was very livid.... well the claims person said to take it to get estimated and it will cost almost $900 to get it done, good thing i'm not paying for it. that sucks and what a way to start w/ the new ride...

anyways i noticed that there are seperate tweets on the door and i'm going ahead w/ seperates in the front, coaxs in the rear door and a sub in the back. when i looked underneath the front seats, it doesn't seem like there is much space for an amp. does anyone else think so??? so i'm going to have to do some exploration and see where else i can put the amps.

has anyone ever heard (by brand and sound) of MA audio??? are they a good brand? does anyone have any articles saying anything about their products?

phuz · March 2005

That sucks about your door man, glad its getting fixed though.

Yeah all 4 runners have the tweets, even the most basic SR5.

I've got a Zapco iForce 250 and an Alpine MRD-301 under my seats, and I know bigger amps will fit. There is more room than you think. Like I said before though, I doubt a 5 channel amp would fit.

neomagus00 · March 2005

their site has a forum; at the moment, they're redoing it, but this will get you to the old version of the site. i glanced through and noticed two things - one, nearly everyone runs their subs at peak instead of rms ratings (running a 400 WRMS sub at 800WRMS!) and two, they seem to be very spl oriented. other than that, i've no idea.

MacLeod · March 2005

MA Audio is decent stuff. Yes they are pretty much a strict SPL company. Their subs handle a lot of power and their amps are pretty hefty as well. As for SQ, eh.

Shawshanks · March 2005

what does "SPL" and "SQ" mean??? Does "SQ" mean sound quality?

neomagus00 · March 2005

yep, sq = sound quality; until you get into relatively expensive subs, volume is sacrificed to achieve this (generally).

spl = sound pressure level; these are the anti-sq subs. they sacrifice quality sound to make it louder. however, in these, as you rise in price you only rise in volume, sq often continues to drop (again, just a general rule).

then there's sql, sound quality level. these attempt to make really loud but really clean sound. a true sql woofer is generally very expensive (case in point - eclipse titanium series).

Shawshanks · March 2005

thanks again for the info Neo... always good to know stuff like these before hand.

Hey Phuz... you said that you also have a 4runner and that the amps would fit under there, but i went to look at it and it does seem kinda tight. for some reason i see wires under both seats even though the only electronic thing on my seat are for the lumbar adjustments. how did you work around that? do you also have the wires under your seat? trying to figure out if there is another place to mount the amps? i want to keep them hidden someplace and not out in the open. i really don't want to attach them to the sub box or even build a casing for it in the back. any suggestions?

phuz · March 2005

The wires are for the lumbar support, and some sensors. Yes I have them. Once you remove the vents from under there, you will notice more room. That is really the only place I could find that would keep em hidden. There is absolutely no room under the rear seats.

Don't ever mount and amp to a sub enclosure.

It's bad.

I didn't look into any other options since mine fit under the seats. I'm sure there are lots of options in the back. Mounting them to the back of the rear seats, or creating a false floor or wall for a clean install.

Also, check where your jack is. You might be able to squeeze one in there behind the side wall in the back.

nil83r · April 2005

Hey shawshanks i like your setup idea u know why it reminds me of my setup i got the following setup
Head Unit: CDA-9833 Bass Engine Pro CD / MP3 / WMA Receiver / Changer Controller
Subwoofers: 2x MM2124 Polk Audio Momo 12 inch
Rear Speakers: DC650 Polk Momo 6.5 inch coiaxial loudspeaker with external crossover
Front Speakers: DB6500 Polk Momo 6.5 inch two way component system with external crossover
Subwoofer Amplifier: Alpine MRD-M501 V12 AccuClass-D Mono Power Amplifier
Front & Rear Speaker Amplifier: MRP-240
Alpine I-POD Module Link
this system is awesome man recommend anything in it

MacLeod · April 2005

Umm, do you have DB speakers or Momo speakers?

nadams · April 2005

Originally posted by phuz
Don't ever mount and amp to a sub enclosure. It's bad.

Why say you? I've had mine mounted there for 3 years and 3 different cars (same box/amp combo travelling throughout) and it's been fine...

MacLeod · April 2005

Maybe vibration could affect them but I had 3 Coustic amps mounted to a box for a pair of 12" MTX Terminators for about 3 years and never had a problem.

Shawshanks · April 2005

Hey Nil... thanks man, i hope that i can make it happen. right now i got some inifinity 6.5 coaxs from fry's that were only $50 and now i need to get the front components. i'm going to slowly build my system. hopefully some of my friends back home will give me some ideas on how to mount everything and that they can hook up some deals for me.

has anyone heard of "planet audio" amps? are they any good?

neomagus00 · April 2005

they're big, and they make power. nothing special, as far as i know, but not too bad either.

MacLeod · April 2005

Yeah, Planet Audio is decent stuff. Worth looking into.

audiobliss · April 2005

Shawshanks, how's this coming? Have you pursued this any further? I'd be interested to see what it is you'ved decided to do and how it's working out for you.

Shawshanks · April 2005

Hey audiobliss... right now things are on hold while i'm back home in hawaii taking care of some family business, although i'm still gathering some info on possible products going into the 4runner. i've decided to go w/ a better HU, the alpine 9853. i still need to look at how and where i'm going to put all this stuff in and still have it look stock. where to put the amps is my biggest issue, i don't want to hook it up to the sub box or on the back of the back seats. i've already got the speakers, inifinity's for the doors and 10" momo sub. when i get back to portland i'll get all of the other stuff and put the bad boys in. one thing w/ getting a new ride, there are all of these cool things i want to install. when i get everything done, rims, stereo, i'll post some pics.

thanks,
shawshanks

Car systems 101

Comments