Blown LSI9 woofer

Chewie

One of my LSI9 woofers blew today while listening to some orchestra music. I can hear it scratching when manually moving the cone. I am the second owner and the speakers are about 1 1/2 years old. They are powered by a Yamaha RX-V1500 so it is getting no more that 120 watts. Is it unusual for a driver to blow like this? I don't see this driver listed on the parts page.

Driver markings:
RD5534
MW5534
Assy date 16 FEB. 2003

VR3

its 4 ohms, your receiver cant do it.

Underpowered, deprived speaker

Call Polk CS, they'll take care of ya! BUY A SEPERATE AMP!

pjdami

Contact Ken Swauger with Polk customer service to see what he can do for you.

kswauger@polkaudio.com

Ken usually hangs out in the "Troubleshooting" forum.

The only other person I've heard of blowing that driver in a Lsi 9 is our resident member Zero. I guess it can happen.

Chewie

I only have a 3 channel system so power shouldn't really be a problem. I have not seen anyone mention blowing a driver by not having enough power. I don't get understand?

Also, fronts are set to small and bass is set to sub only.

Airplay355

contrary to popular belief, most drivers are not blown by too much power. they are blown when you push your amp, or receiver too hard and push it into clipping. clipping is the squaring off of the sin wav which is distortion. this distortion is what blows speakers. usually it kills the tweeters first but i guess not in your case.

Lsi9's are 4 ohm speakers so they put a bigger demand on your receiver. to prevent this from happening again you can get a seperate amp, get different speakers, or keep your amp and speakers and dont turn it up very loud.


edited for my bad spelling

pjdami

See page 25 of your Yamaha user manual. There is a way to set the speaker impedance to either 8 or 6 ohms.

I would contact your Yamaha dealer to see if you can even run the 4 ohm LSi 9s with that receiver because you could damage the receiver next.

Weird, my Yamaha RX-V1300 had a 4 ohm switch on the back of it. I ran it with LSi 9s for a while. Not very loud but it ran okay and didn't get hot or anything.

If you like the LSi's you will need a seperate amp for the best performance as Trey has said already.

Paul

VR3

The LSi can be driven with a receiver. However they can put strain on the amps, by drawing alot of current due to their ohm rating...

Most receivers can barely do 6 ohms, much less 4 ohms.

Yamaha has a 4 ohm switch, but this limits the current the amp gives, which is even worse...

3 channels, 2 channel, 5 channels - its still a receiver. Unless it is rated for 4 ohms, it cant do it - and even if it can, your still not getting what all it can do.

Chewie

I have read on several boards that you should leave the amp set to 8 ohms.

I do plan on getting two Outlaw M-200 amps later this year for the LSI9s. I had not seen anyone mention the possiblity of damaging the speaker from not enough power, just that sound quality wouldn't be at its's best.

When I first got the receiver I contacted Yamaha and they said it should work fine. I also talked with Polk and they didn't mention any problems with this setup. I know that Sound Advice uses this receiver in their demo room for the LSIs.

VR3

You risk damaging a speaker with not enough power more than over-powering it.

And yes, keep the switch to 8 ohms.

McLoki

When I called Polk customer service about running my LSi7's with my Cinepro (was worried about to much power) they told me that they had only seen 1 or 2 speakers blown with to much power. They get calls about blown speakers from underpowered amps or AVR's all the time.

Just wanted to share....

Michael

Chewie

I got a reply from Polk saying that Yamaha receivers are ok, which is what I was told when I called them before getting the LSIs. Seems like their tech support people are not all on the same page. If underpowering the speakers is a problem then there should be something mentioned on the web site. Nothing was said by Sound Advice when I visited their store to compare models. They actually use the same Yamaha receiver in the store.

They charge $50 for a replacement. I don't see why this isn't covered under warranty.

McLoki

Originally posted by Chewie
They charge $50 for a replacement. I don't see why this isn't covered under warranty.

Similar to wrecking a car and expecting the repairs to be covered under the 3 year/36,000 mile warrantee.

Need to get some additional coverage from the store you purchased the speakers from to cover abuse.

It is not that your reciever will always blow the speakers, it is just that you need to be mindfull to listen for any sort of distortion when you turn up the volume. If you hear anything other than increased clarity when the volume goes up - turn it down.

Michael

Chewie

I don't see how it was abuse when I checked with Polk about using these speakers with my receiver and no restrictions were mentioned. I heard no distortion before the problem occured.

Emlyn

Originally posted by Chewie
I don't see how it was abuse when I checked with Polk about using these speakers with my receiver and no restrictions were mentioned. I heard no distortion before the problem occured.

My thought on this is that the previous owner or previous shipping damage are to blame. It is very rare for Polk woofers to experience mechanical problems, hence the 5 year warranty when purchased new from authorized dealers.

Most recent receivers have protection circuits that will shut down the receiver if it is overdriven. As you didn't experience distortion, your tweeters are fine, and your receiver hasn't shut down before (?), I don't think you were over driving your system.

I would echo the compatibility statements above. If you are to get your speakers to perform up to specifications you need amplification that's compatible with 4 ohm speaker loads. Usually, receivers that cost less than around $1500 have low current power supplies that can only deliver output with high total harmonic distortion levels (not necessarily audible until you hear something better) into 4 ohm speakers. The RX-V1500 is only rated to 6 ohms, regardless of how salesmen use or portray the receiver. Your ears will thank you for getting those monoblocks in the future.

scottnbnj

someone help chewie out here. does anyone know about the RX-V1500's volume control? what's a safe level to run the lsi's at until the amps arrive? heh heh,.. maybe some general guidelines to keep driver parts from shooting across the room after the monoblocks arrive would be helpful too.

)

Chewie
Polkie

Registered: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 20
LSI's and RX-V1500 up and running
Originally posted by Chewie
Got my slightly used LSI9's yesterday and hooked them up to my brand new Yamaha RX-V1500. Ran the YPAO setup and now I have some REAL sound. I have a Hitachi 57" rptv and was only using the built in speakers. If I didn't know it I would swear on a stack of bibles that there was a center channel running also. It was like Stevie Nicks was standing right in front of me! I am going to make this a 5.1 system as soon as the UPS man brings the rest of the goodies over the next month. I cranked it up all the way and the receiver handled it with no problem. I was somewhat concerned about this after reading othe posts. We will see what happens when the other components are added.

To be added:

LSIC
LSIFX
SVS PB12-ISD

Last edited by Chewie on 11-06-2004 at 06:46 PM

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11-06-2004 05:01 PM

McLoki

Ahhhh - I must not have seen the original post. I am pretty sure that I know what happened now based on the following.....

Ran the YPAO setup and now I have some REAL sound.

automatically adds 10db worth of cuts or up to 6db worth of adds. Did you have it set for lows by any chance?
in combination with....

I cranked it up all the way and the receiver handled it with no problem.

It seemed to run ok (with no damage) until......

To be added:

LSIC
LSIFX
SVS PB12-ISD

I bet the yapo added the 6db of boost into the range of the woofer and with the added current demands of the rest of the lsi line, either the AVR clipped (surprized it didn't blow the tweeter) or it just pushed the woofer past excursion limits. (possible, but surprizing unless he was really cranking it) I don't think we can give a limit for him other than to listen for distortion or get a monster 5 channel amp......

Michael

Chewie

I talked to the guys at Outlaw today and said I was considering the M200 or the 7100. After describing all the particulars they suggested getting the M200's, especially with a room size of 40' x 25' x10'. I will get two for the fronts and leave the center on the Yamaha receiver.

I believe the volume went to +6. Under speaker level the fronts are set to what would be a 7 on the slider display. This is how the YPAO configured things.

Toxis

just going by your posts here, I don't think you understand what it means to run a 4 ohm speaker on an AVR. I'll be brief. When you do this, you are running the amplifier well below it's handling capabilities. You're overdriving the amplifier and making it distort/reach it's limits at a lower volume. So when you crank it up above reference volume (for instance, +6!), you're clipping the signal and causing the speaker to reproduce a distorted sound. Now you said you didn't hear distortion, but 90% of the distortion in sound is not audible by the human ear so no, I doubt you would've heard the distortion. I'm guessing the AVR was still cranked in the low end from when you didn't have a sub (I'm guessing you do now) and that only makes it overdrive the amp harder than usual. Overdriving an amp, cranking the bass, cranking the volume... bad mixture! You really need to get a seperate amp to drive all of your speakers (not just the fronts) so you don't have this issue again. I'm with everyone else in saying, I'm surprised it wasn't the tweeter that went first... which makes me think the bass on the 9's were cranked.

Chewie

The bass was set to midpoint on the slider before the addition of the sub. I ran the YPAO after installing my sub and set the fronts to small.

I am new to the HT arena and did ask questions of the manufacturer and an authorized retailer. The problem is that I was given the wrong answers. Over the last week I have found out about the problems when using the Yamaha A/V receiver with these speakers. I am disappointed that I was not told of this when I consulted Polk about my planned setup months ago. I mentioned the type of speakers and receiver I was planning on using and was told it would work fine. It's been another learning experience.

Is the guy at Outlaw wrong for recommending the M200s over the 7100?

McLoki

Originally posted by Chewie
Is the guy at Outlaw wrong for recommending the M200s over the 7100?

I am sure they are not wrong, but it is just an opinion. I would recommend running your front stage off external amplifiers. You can get any combo you like (3 channel, 2 channel and a mono block, or 3 monoblocks)

I do liike their idea of the 200 watt amp. you could look at the 755 (5 channel, 200watts/channel) and then add a stereo amp (or run off the avr) for the rear 2 channels if you choose to add them later.

Here is the price breakout -

3 channel - 3 m200 = $897
5 channel - 1 755 = $1299
7 channel - 1 770 (b-stock) = $1549

If it were my money - since you already have the avr that you cannot return (I assume) just go with the 3 m200's to replace you front stage and see how it goes from there.

________________________________

One thing about the difference that amps make.......

When I purchased my LSiC I also tested out the LSi 9, 15 and 25 before settling on the 7's. I ran all of them off my Onkyo AVR. (I did test the 15's and 7's with both the AVR and my Amp).

In Toy Story 2 where Al is talking on the phone to his "asian connection" I could hear what Al said, but could never make out the other side of the conversation. If I turned it up, it got louder but was still garbled. I thought it was just just fake noise for the other side of the conversation that you were not supposed to understand. When I hooked up my cinepro, I could still not hear what they were saying, but as I turned it up, it became more and more clear until I could easily understand what was being said from both parties.

Now when I turn up the volume, it does not just make it louder, but all the details that I thought was just background noise comes more into focus. The AVR just made the background noise louder, the amp changes the perspective from background noise to distinct and clear sounds. It resulted in a sometimes subtle and sometimes huge improvement. You just don't notice the distortion that an inexpensive amp (like the ones built into many mass market avr's) adds, until it is stripped away.

Get the speaker fixed, get a decent amp (don't overlook used if you are on a budget) and report back with what you find.

Enjoy,

Michael

Chewie

I spoke with Polk tech support and was again told that the receiver shouldn't be a problem. I mentioned powering the fronts on monoblocks and leaving the center on the receiver which he said would be ok. He seemed to believe that the very large room was a big factor. So maybe it wasn't the clipping that killed the woofer (would explain no tweeter problem) so much as playing too loud in too big a room. He also said these speakers aren't made to be played at very loud levels, which I was surprised to hear.

unc2701

1)High power amps are much less likely to blow speakers than lower powered ones.
2)If you hear distortion, you've probably already screwed your tweeter
3)Yamaha's say they're four ohm rated and they'll do it up to a certain volume then crap out. You also need to realize that those LSI9's are "4 ohm nominal"- on some frequencies they're gonna be 2ohms and on some they're 6 ohms... but for the most part they're around four ohms. If your music has a lot of frequencies that the LSI9's are 2 ohms for, it'll crap out sooner.
4)There's nothing wrong with running the center & surround off the yamaha & the mains off monoblocks or seperate power... but it won't sound as good- you'll have to boost/ cut channels to get things to move smoothly between the speakers & the sound won't be "matched" -the outlaw has a sound, an Adcom has a sound, a NAD has a sound, a bryston has a sound... they're all slightly different and using a mix might not turn out well.
5)Ok, those speakers are 200 watt rated with an efficiency of about 90db. They can go loud... you also had to push your amp close to clipping to get them loud enough to wail in that big of a room. Speakers are very simple the don;t usually blow for no reason. Either your amp has a problem or you cranked it into clipping and just aren't hearing what you did to the tweeter.

wallstreet

If I played my receiver at +6, I'd would suffer severe hearing loss.

jdhdiggs

Odd thought: If the receiver is to blame, why isn't the tweeter shot? Those seem to be the first item to fail at clip.

My guess is that the woof was damaged in shipment and has finally made itself known OR the woof and tweet were popped and you need a new tweet as well.

Chewie

What about the idea that it was the room size plus loud level that caused damage to the woofer only? MAybe the receiver wasn't to blame at all.

McLoki

Just a basic question - you do have all your speakers set to small right? If you have your fronts set to large (from before you got your sub) and the yamaha PEQ boosted a lower frequency, it could have forced over excursion. (or just stressed the woofer)

I know I have LSi7's and a huge room and they can play loud enough you have to yell over them.

I am sure you just did not feed them the power that they needed (or did, then it hit a peak in the music/movie) and it clipped.
Are you sure your tweeters are ok? If you play something with alot of highs in it (disconnect the woofer in that speaker) do they both sound the same (and if so, do they both still sound good?)

Michael

unc2701

You might not notice the tweeter damage right off- My cat put a claw through the dome tweeter on my old rt1000i's and yeah, I noticed, but it sounded amazingly good for having a gigantic hole in it.

do what McLoki said... unhook the woofers & pan back and forth. If you have kids, have them listen, too- they're better with the high frequencies.

Chewie

Last week I was fortunate to find someone at Audiogon with 3 Outlaw M-200 amps. They are a year old and I got them for $615 delivered. They just arrived today and even came in the original boxes. Now that my LSI's are being fed well all should be ok.