I now understand....

VR3
VR3 Posts: 28,775
edited January 2005 in Speakers
All these old guys on here talking about 2-channel with no subwoofer...

Yep, I understand it now.

I have (like always) continuously been tinkering with placement with my Definitives. Since their tonal characteristics change drastically with each move, its fun!

Anyways, I moved them about 15" from the back wall and the bass response increased significantly so. So I unplugged the sub and disabled the crossover in the preamp and turned them loose.

It seems as if they are pretty solid down to atleast 40hz with 125 watts - and according to my past graphs, they have plenty of room to gain volume in the lower regions with more power -

But anyways, they still have a dip at 90hz, that is more so my room than the speakers, all my graphs have it - so the bass drums are kinda weak.

However, hopefully my new amp will bring the bass even MORE to life and I can enjoy 2-channel listening WITHOUT a subwoofer. It truly is unique --

Anyone got a larger room for sell?
- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
Post edited by VR3 on
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Comments

  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited January 2005
    Nooooo, Sid, my fellow bass-ite, say it ain't so!!!!!!

    Hook that damn sub back up and retract your statements immediately before we kick you out of the Bass Club. Don't forget our credo -- Subs Rule!
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,775
    edited January 2005
    LOL!

    No doubt, subs add impact, etc -

    But the Definitives have stellar bass, can't wait to see what they have to offer with 300+++ watts! W00t w00t

    All in the fun man! They still sound better crossed at 80hz - they are bright, need a sub to calm them! :)
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • cubdog
    cubdog Posts: 835
    edited January 2005
    Can I have your sub??? I have four and want more!!!

    cubdog
    Shuguang Classic S8MK
    Emotiva XDA-2
    Bel Canto M300 mono blocks
    Bel Canto DAC 1.5
    Squeezebox Touch
    Sony SS-M7
    A/D/S L710
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  • PhysicsCoder
    PhysicsCoder Posts: 40
    edited January 2005
    I find that it depends on the recording. Most tracks I just love listening to in Neo:6 with the sub (now that I've got one :D ), but there are always a few tracks where I just shut all that crap off and let my rt55i's sing. Cream comes to mind (the band, not the goo).
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    All these old guys on here talking about 2-channel with no subwoofer...

    Yep, I understand it now.

    Hey, whatta ya mean "old" guys! Sounds better w/o the sub don't it? I gave an SVS a whirl, but just didn't like the added emphasis on the bass; I'm back to 2 speakers, and 2 speakers I'll stay....

    I admit that subs are a load of fun on movies though.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited January 2005
    I love subs for fun.

    For listening... they muddle up everything.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • kingtut
    kingtut Posts: 813
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    All these old guys on here talking about 2-channel with no subwoofer...

    In Sid's view, all of us are old!
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,775
    edited January 2005
    Old fockers you are, ALL of ya!

    I disagree to an extent, a sub - blended right, etc - can sound great...

    BUT, these Definitives have bass SIMILAR to my SVS, and this should ONLY increase with more power...

    So I am excited...

    (I need a SPL meter)
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Pauly
    Pauly Posts: 4,519
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by cubdog
    Can I have your sub??? I have four and want more!!!

    cubdog

    Sounds like you need ONE SVS and will take care of that.....

    Trey just cut the **** and get a pair of SDA's and your set...Geeez have seen a few in your neck of the woods as of late...GET ER DONE!!!!!

    Pauly
    Life without music would♭
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited January 2005
    I disagree to an extent, a sub - blended right, etc - can sound great...

    OK, I was worried for a while, but Sid has come back home.

    I've tried three different floorstanders in my listening room and quickly go back to bookshelf speakers and a sub. Here's why:

    1. It's gotta be one helluva (i.e., expensive) triple threat louspeaker that can play highs, mids and lows with outstanding precision.

    2. Bass can be easily locatable with floorstanding speakers.

    3. Most of us are limited by placement with floorstanders, thus impacting the best location for bass -- in a corner somewhere.

    4. A sub is designed to be a sub. A floorstanding speaker isn't.

    5. Many floorstanding speakers' low range "smears" the highs and mids. Best to just deal with it separately.

    Another observation -- bookshelf speakers without subs are missing part of the music. It's like watching a movie in full screen.

    Most people play subs entirely too loudly. Subs should blend with the music and should not call attention to itself.

    The downside to a separate sub, as Sid mentioned, is that it has to be properly located and dialed in real good. Otherwise, you get boominess. Yuck.

    IMO, a 10" sub works best. Just the right speed and it doesn't need to go very low. Hsu VTF/STF-2 subs are excellent with music. I use an Onix Rocket.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,775
    edited January 2005
    I have to disagree with you on a couple things.

    And I am not saying my speakers are perfect.

    They have a 'Quasi-Transmission Line' - where the bass back wave comes out the rear-firing-big ****$ port - and not alot of the bass comes from the front. The bass is tight and has incredible depth with no way to localize it at all.

    Probally also due to the fact the bass is being radiated in two directions - front and back -

    Its a neat concept, but they DO need power to pull it off (I am working on that).

    Calibrating a subwoofer in my room is HARD. Infact, in doing so, I actually had to sacifice output with movies. I am NOT sure what my FR sweep looks like in my room right now. But I am pretty certain I no longer have a HUGE spike at 60-50hz...

    I placed 100 pounds of speaker right behind the subwoofer, and the bass kinda tightened up for some reason, I dont even know why - became more transparent and clean... (I'm not complaining)

    But, I did lose output in movies, that sucks...

    But towers, cheap ones, can have great bass, mids, and highs.

    And a 10" - I can agree, but the PC Ultra driver, and every adire woofer witht he XBL^2 motors - should be accurate as sheat. I've heard the PC Ultra, that woofer is INSANELY fast. (IMO).

    Spastic,
    No SDAs for me man! :)
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • jmierzur
    jmierzur Posts: 489
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3

    But towers, cheap ones, can have great bass, mids, and highs.

    And a 10" - I can agree, but the PC Ultra driver, and every adire woofer witht he XBL^2 motors - should be accurate as sheat. I've heard the PC Ultra, that woofer is INSANELY fast. (IMO).

    Cheap towers have good bass, mids and highs??

    Yes, the PCU is insanely fast and accurate. The only sub I can afford that I would use for two channel listening; one for each channel.:)
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,775
    edited January 2005
    I didnt say have...

    I said *can*...

    And not nessicarily CHEAP towers, like 1,000 a pair (WITH NO SUBS) - I'm so tired of towers with subs...

    The PCU is great.

    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited January 2005
    Originally posted by Early B.
    OK, I was worried for a while, but Sid has come back home.

    I've tried three different floorstanders in my listening room and quickly go back to bookshelf speakers and a sub.

    Wow, with all that experience you surely have everything figured out. Play with your subs, I am just one of those old fockers so what would I know. :rolleyes:

    I have several sets of bookshelves but if its just the same I'll keep the floorstanders I have.

    Nice to see you gain some understanding Sid.

    RT1
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited January 2005
    Hey MX,
    I've been playing with the LS-7's hooked up to a 900 watt per channel amp (into 4 ohms). The bass is full and has a lot of authority. It sounds like a bookshelf/sub combo SHOULD sound if it were possible to blend perfectly. Get more power and you can truely dump that sub and use only bookshelf sized speakers.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,775
    edited January 2005
    Why would I want bookshelfs? lol

    I am getting a larger amp - REAL soon hopefully.

    380 x2 into 8

    w00t w00t
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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