Should I downsize?

Early B.

I have a Musical Fidelity A3cr pre and Odyssey Stratos amp. The sound is fantastic. Nevertheless, I have been thinking about selling them and investing in a used integrated tube amp, maybe an Antique Sound Lab. If I did that I could recoup several hundred bucks with no real loss in sound quality. Is this correct? Will a good integrated tube amp sound as good as solid state separates?

My room is 12' x 17' and we only listen at low to moderate sound levels, primarily jazz. Speaker sensitivity is about 90 db.

Thanks.

ninerbj

EB...you crazy goof. I think your idea is brilliant, as long as I get first shot at that Stratos.

Early B.

Zero -- yeah, I know what you mean. I defintely prefer the "tube sound." One of the reasons I am considering this change is because I recently heard a Jolida integrated tube amp hooked up to my CD player and I couldn't tell the difference in sound quality between my separate components and the Jolida. Keep in mind, however, that this listening test was not conducted in my room, so it's not a true comparison. Nevertheless, I'm wondering for my tastes and my setup if an integrated tube amp would serve me just as well as what I already have.

I don't know, but I suppose there's only one way to find out...

dragon1952

If you can swing the funds why not buy the tube amp and then just keep the one you prefer and sell the other to recoup your money. That way you don't have any regrets.

dorokusai

Yes.

Early B.

I may end up doing that by default. Although I'd rather make this purchase at least budget neutral for the WAF.

F1nut

How about trying a tubed pre amp if you're looking for the tube sound.

BlueMDPicker

Here's something to look at that ISN'T Jolida. Made by the Ah! Njoe Tjoeb folks, with an Adaptive AutoBias circuit that monitors and adjusts bias constantly and instantly. Price is right, too, at $1345.

PrimaLuna Prologue Two

madmax

Originally posted by Early B.
Will a good integrated tube amp sound as good as solid state separates?

My room is 12' x 17' and we only listen at low to moderate sound levels, primarily jazz. Speaker sensitivity is about 90 db.

Thanks.

It should sound much better than most SS separates until you get in the ultra-high-dollar electronics.

madmax

tonyv1

I second the tube preamp suggestion.
You get the tube sound with the SS muscle (I have a hybrid SS amp with 2 6922 tubes in the front end). Works great and sounds wonderful driving my Maggies.

Early B.

I just purchased a Jolida SJ502A integrated tube amp. It should arrive late next week. I'm hoping it'll sound at least as good as what I had before.

madmax

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Just sent a pm before seeing this. I see you bought a jolida 502. You must have been reading my mind. That would have been my choice as well. Let us know how it goes. Did you get one of the older black ones or one of the new models? They both look pretty sexy. I think you will be VERY happy.
madmax

Edit: I think you will find this to be a big upgrade, not a downsizing.

Early B.

Max -- thanks for the reply. You sound pretty confident that the Jolida will sound better than what I had before. That's encouraging. I don't know if it is the newer version or not, but it's all black with gold knobs. I think it'll look great and should have a high WAF. Looking forward to getting it. I'll post my thoughts on it.

madmax

That is the earlier version. The sexiest one in my opinion. They make a cage that goes over the tubes but I like mine naked.



Here are a few things I have figured out about the Jolida:

If it is new it will have to play for awhile before it sounds right. The caps, xformers etc have to burn in.

With new electronics or new tubes it sounds inferior for the first 50 to 75 hours, sometimes up to 100 hours.

Always let the amp warm up for 1 hour before critical listening. For the first 45 minutes the sound is somewhat lifeless.

Tube equipment blows fuses occasionally. Live with it. Keep a few laying around because they always blow at the wrong time.

If your speakers are 4 or 8 ohms then hook them up to the correct output posts. If they are 6 ohms try both to determine which sounds the best. They do sound a little different.

If you feel the unit vibrate (60 hz) you can sit something heavy on the big xformer in the middle and it will clean up very low level noise. I use a magic brick on mine.

Although the unit comes with 6550 tubes many people prefer the Svetlana KT-88 tubes. They are interchangeable.

Bias the unit every now and then. It is very easy with the Jolida. All you need is a little voltmeter and a small screw driver. Do it after the unit has been on for a few hours and fully warmed up.

Start your listening session at a low volume and work your way up. This is where you find the real magic. The tubes will draw you in at a much lower volume than SS.

The bias level changes as the 110V input changes. If you notice it sounds better certain times of the day keep an eye on the bias voltage and you can figure it out.

The tubes will give you much better definition than most SS. What this means is that all of a sudden you will be able to hear differences in cables, power cords, what the unit is sitting on (such as heavy solid table, glass, vibrapods etc).

Listen very closely to the tone of the instruments. Yes, each one now has a tone. Instead of a trumpet sounding like every other trumpet each one will now sound a little different. Same with all other instruments.

If you are not hearing some of the above differences then investigate new speakers.




That is all I can think of right now. If I run across anything else I'll post it.

madmax


EDIT: Next thing you know there will be silly talk of vinyl and other such nonsense.

Early B.

Max --

Thanks a lot. Your last post is gold for a guy who is new to tubes. The person I'm buying the unit from says it's got Svetlana 6550's in it right now. I'll try those for a while, then maybe check out the KT-88's later. Seems like $100 for a quad is the going rate for them, I guess.

madmax

Originally posted by Zero
Wow, Max - You have really been token up on that tube pipe eh!?

I'm living in a warm fuzzy vacuum where electrons flow as they should, through air!

madmax

madmax

A multimeter to measure the bias voltage will be necessary. One of this class would do fine.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F008%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D820

madmax

Early B.

Max -- you musta been reading my mind about the voltmeter. Thanks for the link.

organ

I'm a little late here. Congrats Early! Let us know how the new int sounds. Take a look at the Chinese KT88 tube also. The 2ch people on the Klipsch forum say this one it the best.

Madmax,
Damn dude. That's some serious stuff. Very well written.
You made a good point about the bias drifting. My amp is made to be biased at 1.56V but throughout the day/night it usually drifts down 0.1V. I'm sure it's the line voltage. Since my amp is from the 60's, it was made to operate at 117V AC. Do you think a Variac set at 117V will give me a more constant bias voltage?

Maurice

Early B.

OK - I gotta ask the newbie question -- what the hell is bias and why should I care???

BTW -- just picked up a NIB Sears Craftsman multimeter off ebay for dirt cheap. If I get an answer to this question, then I'll know why I bought it.

madmax

So what will your system be with the new amp? Strictly 2 channel or the front part of an HT? CD player?

I would recommend a good interconnect from your CD player to the amp. I had the MIT S3 cable for awhile and it worked out really well with the Jolida. Of course there are a lot of good cables out there at varying costs. I found the AudioQuest type 4 cable to be nice but I have not tried too many. I do think that solid conductor speaker cable has something to be said for it. The type 4 has four strands of very soft copper which makes for very nice solid connections and seems to have a lot more detail than the cheaper types of stranded wire, such as RS etc.

Having the gold knobs is a plus. Not only does it look very classy it points to when it was produced. I only know the sequence, not the years. They started off with these funky ugly black knobs with a white stripe. Later they went to a black smooth knob with a silver machined looking edge. It was ok looking but nothing like the gold. The latest ones had the gold.

madmax

Early B.

Strictly 2-channel. The interconnects are Kimber Heros. The CD player is a modded Chinese tube CD player. Speakers are Norh 5.1's. Speaker cables are Audioquest Mammoth. The Jolida won't arrive until next Tuesday. I must exercise great patience.

madmax

Originally posted by Early B.
OK - I gotta ask the newbie question -- what the hell is bias and why should I care???

BTW -- just picked up a NIB Sears Craftsman multimeter off ebay for dirt cheap. If I get an answer to this question, then I'll know why I bought it.

First of all, the Craftsman multimeter must go. Sorry. It is only good enough to measure batteries and that number may vary depending on its own battery voltage. I'm a Sears man through and through but their multimeters suck really bad.

I don't fully understand all there is to know about bias. What I think I know is that the tubes require a high voltage to pull electrons through the tube. This voltage on your amp should be 500 volts. They put a resistor network in so what you are measuring is 1/10000 of that. (Much safer!) When you set your bias to 50 milivolts (or 0.050 volts) you are actually setting the tube supply to 500 volts. It this gets too high or low it causes the tubes to not perform properly. Either they burn out quickly or sound crappy. The bias is only for your output tubes. The four little preamp-driver tubes do not require biasing therefore do not have bias adjustments.

A variac will drift with the line voltage. What you need is a "power conditioner" with "brown out" protection. I use an LCR-4800 by tripplite.

madmax

F1nut

If not the MIT S3's, then what are you using now and why?

madmax

Oh, those MIT's really suck.


Just kidding.

Actually I guess I am using the S3's now. I got the numbers mixed up. What I meant was I used to use the S1's. (which are not too far below or different than the S3's). Of course how would I know because I'm still using the S1's going to the amp. So it is CD-S3-preamp-S1-amp.

madmax

EDIT: I use the preamp because of the phono preamp. It is a good preamp so I let the CD go through it as well. I will probably go ahead and connect the CD directly to the Jolida integrated when time permits.

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by Early B.
OK - I gotta ask the newbie question -- what the hell is bias and why should I care???

BTW -- just picked up a NIB Sears Craftsman multimeter off ebay for dirt cheap. If I get an answer to this question, then I'll know why I bought it.

I have to agree with Madmax loss the "Sears multimeter" is worth what you've paid for it close to nothing.

Bias can be stated like this also. Bias is a voltage that sets the tube or transistor base level. Think of a Tube or Transistor as an ON / OFF device with grey level in between. The Bias sets the Tube or Transistor to the proper level of grayness for the circuit design.

Deeper a preamp tube stage is usually set to mid level dead center level because this is a class "A" amp section. Where a output usually being a push / pull design is set to a lower level of Bias due to the amp section being a class "B" design, and the output device is working against each other output component.

madmax

That was a good explanation!

Yea, again, loose the voltmeter. You don't want to control 500 volts with something that can be 10% to 40% off. Lets see, you could set it to maybe 700 volts by mistake. That type of error will make you hate tubes very quickly.

madmax

Early B.

EDIT: I use the preamp because of the phono preamp. It is a good preamp so I let the CD go through it as well. I will probably go ahead and connect the CD directly to the Jolida integrated when time permits.

What kind of preamp do you have? I'm curious to see what differences in SQ you'll get once you connect the CD directly to the integrated amp.

madmax

I have an Audio Illusions Modulus 3A. It is very quiet in line and seems to pass everything with little or no changes. Of course everything adds noise. Maybe this weekend I'll do it. I'll let you know if I hear a difference. If nothing else it eliminates a lower quality interconnect which should make a difference.

madmax

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by madmax
That was a good explanation!

Thanks for that...

To tell you the truth I almost became an Electronics teacher many years ago.

F1nut

Originally posted by madmax
Oh, those MIT's really suck.

Yep, totally! I can't believe I bought another pair of them.....hehe.

What I meant was I used to use the S1's. (which are not too far below or different than the S3's).

LOL.....you've got it backwards, the S1 is TOTL Shotgun cable. It's the S3 that's not far below.