RCA vs Optical Outs

KCF

I've been running generic CD player (sony) with my system, but since I'm beefing it up, I decided to dig out my old Pioneer Elite PD-31 CDP to see what eventuates. Given that my older Onkyo Integra amp doesn't have optical inputs, how much will it effect the results, given that it'll be connected via RCA's?
To fully appreciate the difference, will I need to have digital connects in future?

dorokusai

Optical is for pansies.

Unless you have a nearfield interference issue, e.g. RF Frequency Generators, Oscilliscopes, Various Test Equipment, 10Kw Microwave Dish....or an RF hazard that you should wear an alarm for....stick with a shielded RCA.

KCF

Uh...., ok, well,

TheReaper

Originally posted by KCF
Are there particular weaknesses of optical connects (besides tendencies to, uh, skittishness)?:rolleyes:

To go long distances, like your neighbor's house. You have to buy good quality (expensive) cables.

Another benefit of optical is that they can't cause ground loop problems, because there is no electrical connection.

AsSiMiLaTeD

The only reason you'd ever want to use optical out of a CD player is if you were running it to an upgraded DAC (digital analog converter).

When you use the standard red and white RCA out of your player, all the decoding is being done inside the CD player (using the internal DAC). When you use a digital cable (coax or optical), the decoding is being done by whatever you run that cable in to, typically a receiver or sometimes an external DAC...

Unless you have an external DAC, I'd stick with the RCA outputs and let the CD player do all the work, becuase it usually has better DACs inside and does a better job than a standard receiver will do. If you have an external DAC (doubtful based on the fact that we're having this conversation), then you'd use the digital outputs to get the pure digital signal to the DAC and let it do all the converting...

Hope that makes sense...

jdhdiggs

I'd have to agree with the maniac. You will want your best DAC doing the decoding. If this is the CDP, then use the analog outs. If it is not the CDP, then use digital.

As for types of digital, it doesn't really matter if you use the RCA or fiber since the material is digital. With oversampling, the errors theoretically introduced by converting into light signals and back really don't matter.

2+2

Polkmanic makes sense except that if you do upgrade to a receiver with an optical, make sure you try out the optical connection anyways....it may sound better than the RCA by a significant margin. I found that my H/K DACs sound noticably better with my set up than the famed Burr-Brown DACs of Tosh. 3960.

dorokusai

I don't recall him even mentioning an outboard DAC, but no kidding.

Reaper - I have never seen, heard or ran troubleshooting on an RCA ground loop problem.....everything starts at the wall socket. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but there's often a root cause to that problem.

HBombToo

Originally posted by 2+2
I found that my H/K DACs sound noticably better with my set up than the famed Burr-Brown DACs of Tosh. 3960.

what model h/k do you have? I also like the sound of the dacs in my 510.

HBomb

2+2

Hey HBomb, I have a bottom model AVR 230 but DACs sound really good. The only major negative using the digital signal is that depending on your digital source, there is a second gap on some cds so you miss split second of the song in the beginning....not all cds but some. I found my DACs in my Panasonic DVD/CD changer to sound very similar to the AVR...pretty good...

AsSiMiLaTeD

I believe the issue with missing the first second of a track is an H/K issue...

I've seen bunches of posts from HK owners regarding this...mostly on other forums and review sites...

2+2

Polkmanic, yup...you are correct..it is an issue with HKs where if the signal drops (between songs for example) for more than 2 seconds or so, the processor has to re-identify and relock on to the type of signal which takes about a second. HK is not the only one tho....I know that Rotel receivers do the same thing. It is also somehow related to the source...some sources aggrivating the delay while others minimize it........but we digress.....

TheReaper

Originally posted by dorokusai
Reaper - I have never seen, heard or ran troubleshooting on an RCA ground loop problem.....everything starts at the wall socket. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but there's often a root cause to that problem.

It is occasionally a problem when connecting a computer sound card (computer in different outlet) to a receiver. As many computer sound cards now offer digital outputs, some with optical or a little optical converter jack. Using the optical connection is an easy way to fix/avoid a ground loop problem.

danger boy

how old is your Pioneer elite CDP? Does it have digital outputs?

does it have BOTH optical and coax?

I use a heavy thick coax digital Vampire wire cable from my Marantz CD player to an external DAC. from the DAC to the receiver.. it goes via high quality RCA's. to my ears.

MacLeod

So optical isnt up to its hype?

I know its a big selling point if you go to Circuit City or Best Buy looking for receivers.

tonyv1

I know its a big selling point if you go to Circuit City or Best Buy looking for receivers.

They're probably referring to DVD players and their digital optical connection for movies. Like the guys said before, just figure out which has the better DACs, the CDP or the receiver. Personally, I use an external DAC that upsamples with a coax cable.

KCF

Thanks for all the info gents... I have learned a lot, and I hope now to avoid risk of becoming girly-man.
Danger- I bought the Pioneer in '92- (still had the receipts), and yes, it has a (1) digital out, and two RCA outs, fixed and variable.....
The only problem with the thing is that it uses an inverted laser reader (disc goes in upside down) and the damn laser lens FELL OUT!! I guess not an uncommon issue for these players.. It's been sitting for a lotta years, I couldn't bring myself to pitch it. i guess the cure is to superglue its eye back in, sometimes it works, sometimes it don't ...... we'll see... But inside the case looks pretty impressive hardware wise, I hope it can be saved..

danger boy

KCF, since your CDP is an Elite series.. i would think it would be worth fixing. Once fixed... you may find it quite good to listen to. That is of course that repairs don't cost more than a new CDP.

PolkFreak

Hello, I really don't see why people go on and on about Coax or DIG TOS link wonder which is better? A DVD player reads with a beam of light. With the DVD player hooked up with a fiber optic cable, it also sends a strait digital signal via light into the receiver. That would equal zero signal loss compared to an analog connection. There is no signal change with a fiber optic being output to a receiver. It is coming out the same way it was read. Through a beam of light. It is then output analog through the speaker wire. So with a fiber optic cable it is like the DVD player and receiver are one unit because it is a strait digital signal going from one unit to another. I think the integrity of the signal is being changed when you use analog cables from a DVD or CD player to a receiver. I heard some dork one time saying fiber optic sucked because you go from digital to analog over and over with the fiber optic. WTF is that guy talking about? Your more likely to change the signal with analog cables. With the fiber optic you are going from a beam of light reading the disc to outputting a beam of light to your receiver. Then it outputs analog through the speaker wire. I also agree with the FACT that when you use a fiber optic cable your receiver does the DAC conversion.
When you use analog cables your DVD/CD player does the DAC conversion. That is just the way it works. I'll always take the fiber optic cable over that RCA digital coax cable. I've compared analog cables to the fiber optic and the fiber optic sounded better.

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by PolkFreak
Hello, I really don't see why people go on and on about Coax or DIG TOS link wonder which is better? A DVD player reads with a beam of light. With the DVD player hooked up with a fiber optic cable, it also sends a strait digital signal via light into the receiver.

Short answer NO.

Yes a DVD reads with a beam of light, but it's converted to an electrical signal right then there. An TOS cable is not directly connected to the laser pick up.

PolkFreak

Hi, I'm sorry I didn't mean to make it sound that way...
But a signal running through the circuits is digital as well is it not?
Like how a computer works err I guess that didn't come out right.
Like a cpu talking to the motherboard. Those are digital circuits...
The circuits on a DVD player are simalar. Sure isn't analog...
I'm going to stop talking now

disneyjoe7

Ok,

I'm an Electronic Technician, but a little old (41) rusty on this new stuff never any training on that stuff. Digital was new when I was in school. CD wasn't even out I think, or just new to market?

But as for as your digital in the CD / DVD player is right, analog only after the DA (Digital to Analog) converter.

LuSh

PolkFreak....Digital Coax is the preferred cable, its handles more bandwidth and allows for less conversion. That "laser light" is then switched back to an analoge electrical wavelength. Most higher end separate DAC's use Digital Coax out.

Look and see all the true high end digital cables, they all use Coax, theres a reason for this. I would put my Moray James Digital Coax cable against any optic cable in the world regardless of price and be quite confident that it would outperform the optic cable. Digital coax also offer better dynamics, people might hear a "cleaner" signal from a Optical cable, but that has more to do with the crappy digital frontend they are using then the actual cable.

Theres a reason why people and companies like Moray James, Cardas Neutral reference, Harmonic Technologies sell $300-600 Digital Coax cables and usually not optical.

danger boy

everything aside... why were two digital cables developed in the first place anyway? I guess they figured it would some day lead to an argument on which was better.

I've used both.. and still do. I for the life of me can't hear any difference between the two. I know my ears aren't as trained as other people's are. I know my gear is old and entry level stuff, but does it really matter if someone wants to use an optical over a coax?

Now i hear them glass ones are a whole other story. :eek:

2+2

and there is also the thought that as far as digital coax, it really doesnt matter what you use as they are 1 and 0s. There was an article somewhere where they tested coathangers and regular rca wires I believe.....I don't know if digital cable makes a diff. or not....just pointing out competing thoughts.....

LuSh

CD players use to be just about picking up 1's and 0's and nobody thought any differently....untill YBA came out with a CD player that blew away everything.

PolkFreak

I too have heard the statement about the digital coax sending info in the same manner as the fiber optic which is 0's and 1's.
In the end they both do the same thing and I guess we are all happy for that. I may have pressed the issue a bit strong because there is some great analog RCA cables out there. I even have a Sony SACD DVD/CD player that uses analog RCA cables. There is also great vintage analog record players, amps, and so on. And no matter how much time goes on, I'll always love the timeless sound of the 80's SDA series! The Monitor series too!
Regardless of how hi-tech things get, the classics will always sound good.

LuSh

You might be in for a shock, but nothing can touch Analogue sound....most notorious high enders use records. Theres a reason why companies like Rockport can charge $500,000 for an LP player.

TheReaper

Originally posted by LuSh
...Digital Coax is the preferred cable, its handles more bandwidth and allows for less conversion.

The conversion makes no differance, that is the advantage of digital. You can convert it and retransmit it an infinite number of times, and it is still the same.

As for more band width, this makes no differance as both cables can handle the required bandwidth. But, because light has a higher frequency, the optical cable has the potential of carrying more digital data than the coax.