Bookshelf v. Floorstanding

tryrrthg

Originally posted by F1nut
The first and most basic rule of speakers:

There is NO substitute for large radiating surfaces, period.

Unless those large radiating surfaces are the speaker cabinets! because GOOD floorstanding speakers aren't cheap to make!

reeltrouble1

Whichever way you decide to go your decision will at least be based upon an informed one. To me the fact that you thought about it speaks volumes over a blind buy based on something not really audio related.

SteveAz mentioned that most instruments do not have notes below 40hz, I agree, however, their are noted exceptions, but as he said, most do not. It is very hard for the human ear to hear low notes, about 64 times as hard as hearing normal conversation, because of this recording schools generally consider 40-80 hz as the usable bass section. As a side note it is also VERY DIFFUCULT to make a musical master recording mix using tones below the 40 hz sound really good, one article I saw from a noted Detroit area school stated "people dont have speakers that can play below 40hz so why bother with this difficult mixing. Well many of us do have speakers that can reach will below the 40 hz range and many recording masters will go beneath 40 hz, it is just a rule of thumb so to speak.

The piano keyboard extends will beneath the 40 hz level down to 27.5 hz, a five string bass guitar down to around 30 hz. Stevie Ray tuned his regular six string to Eb at 38.8 hz. Musicians/songwriters are aware of the diffuculty of hearing low bass, at times the low bass note will be played with the same bass note one ocatave above this creates an effect making the bass easier to hear, although upper bass note will dominate. As stated by F1, this is why you need a large radiating surface and plenty of clean power to dig down deep with musicality and not "mud" or "rumble".

All that said, and if you are still reading :rolleyes: the bookshelf offers its own benefits over the floorstander and generally can do an outstanding job with the midrange where nearly all vocals and melody lines are found, cymbal shimmers occur at arond 15 hz. way up the scale so to speak, others here have already noted this. One thing I noticed about bookshelf mid-line trends is the use of porting instead of acoustic suspension (sealed), this is done so that the smaller bookshelf can extend down lower and play a bit louder bass with increased efficiency, however, it takes away from the precision and accuracy of the speaker, the very thing they do so well. Our own beloved LSi have a 3db rolloff at 50 hz. So there you go, want a sub? This is too long and crossover slopes with subs and ports is another story someone else can tell. I like my stereo to be 2. nada.

Not exactly sure what all this means, just a few more "random thoughts" to consider.

RT1

Edit: I apologize for the length of this post and for stating some things many of you are well aware of, just trying to help the polkies.

audiobliss

haha; don't apologize for anything.......I think you're helping..

I like the '2.nada'....

tryrrthg

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but it also depends on the size of your room. In my small room I get TOO MUCH bass from my "little" bookshelf speakers. They even shake the floor for all you bass heads! A small room is no place to be putting large radiating surfaces unless you've got some serious acoustic treatments to absorb the bass!

audiobliss

hmm....I've got my speakers in a small bedroom......with four 8" woofers......I like it......:D

:cool:

tryrrthg

Originally posted by audiobliss
hmm....I've got my speakers in a small bedroom......with four 8" woofers......I like it......:D

:cool:

No offense, but since you're a teenager and probably never heard a good high end system, you probably don't know what bass is SUPPOSED to sound like. Boom away young lad!

steveinaz

Even to "bass-heads" (me included) bookshelves can be very addicting after you listen to them for awhile. Because most don't hit the lower depths, they tend to have a punchy bass, which most people like; it gives the music a little more slam than you're typical floorstander provides.

I agree with the comments about liking the big sound you get from towers, but this largely an "effect" not necessarily a true representation of the music. Kinda like a "loudness" button, it sounds really cool, but is it an accurate recreation of the recording? No.

F1nut

Originally posted by steveinaz
Even to "bass-heads" (me included) bookshelves can be very addicting after you listen to them for awhile. Because most don't hit the lower depths, they tend to have a punchy bass, which most people like; it gives the music a little more slam than you're typical floorstander provides.

I agree with the comments about liking the big sound you get from towers, but this largely an "effect" not necessarily a true representation of the music. Kinda like a "loudness" button, it sounds really cool, but is it an accurate recreation of the recording? No.

I have to disagree and say that you've got it all backwards. The sound of "live" music has a big sound and is most accurately reproduced by large speakers. The punchy mid bass and slam is not.

audiobliss

Originally posted by tryrrthg
No offense, but since you're a teenager and probably never heard a good high end system, you probably don't know what bass is SUPPOSED to sound like. Boom away young lad!

Yep, yep, pick on the youngin's......lol

But seriously, I think I agree with you 100%. I'm sure I haven't heard a well set-up, high-end system. Even if I had, though, I have not yet become critical enough to have known it, lol.

Qualifier: I do not like the hideous, monstrous, evil bass oozing forth from every teenager's car at the stop light. I just like a lot of quality bass.

Orignally posted by steveinaz
but is it an accurate recreation of the recording? No.

Ya know, I've often wondered why you folks are so caught-up in exactly recreating what the guy who mastered the CD wanted you to hear. In my mind, if you think it sounds better.....then it's better!!! Yeah, do away with noise and distortion from wires, cables, amplification, and processing, but if some feature or setting or speaker or tone control makes it sound better......then it's better.......I think.....I dunno. I haven't really thought about it that much, but it does strike me as interesting that when people are asking, "What speakers?! What amp?! What pre?!" Y'all say, "Go out and demo them; if it sounds good then that is all that matters." Then someone asks, "What do I do with my tone controls?!" And everybody jumps in and says, "Don't mess with them! If you change them, it won't be true to the original recording!" instead of, "Hey, just play around with them and get 'em to where you think they sound best."

Anyhoo, maybe it's just 'cause I don't know nearly half of what y'all know.......

Early B.

Anyhoo, maybe it's just 'cause I don't know nearly half of what y'all know.......

Your previous post is absolutely correct. Some of us can sometimes be a bit snobbish about what we believe to be high quality sound, and try to convince others that what they're hearing is crap.

Don't be discouraged or intimidated by comments from those who have been into audio for longer than you've been alive. Your hearing is probably just as good as anyone else's, so if you like what you hear, that's all that matters, isn't it? Floorstanding or bookshelf or inwall-- who the hell cares? With decent speakers, either option is a great one.

steveinaz

Audiobliss-
you're right, the bottom line is what sounds good to you. But when someone is wanting opinions, you have to assume they're looking for an objective answer and one that speaks to fidelity of the original signal, especially with "comparison" questions. It's a fine line for sure.

Anytime you're comparing object A to object B, you have to have a level playing field; this assumes that the person asking the question doesn't want the original source changed. Example, had he said "which has more bass, bookshelves or floorstanders?" Then we have a whole different question....make sense?

Anywho--bottom line, it's your dime. Buy what pleases you.

2+2

I've often wondered why you folks are so caught-up in exactly recreating what the guy who mastered the CD wanted you to hear. In my mind, if you think it sounds better.....then it's better!!!

I have never owned them...but I believe that is the philosophy of Bose. Make it sound good with good mids, don't publish any test data, and market the hell out of it so that to a consumer's mind, they "sound good".

audiobliss

Ok, Early & Steve....maybe I see......at least it makes sense.......I think........:p

one day......

VR3

I think we all can figure out what I recomended to Mac!

I, at one time had the RT35i, RTi70, and the RT5 all in this room. I liked the RT5 over all of them. The RTi70 was my least favorite (by a large margin) -

The RT35i was the jack off all trades, master of none. Loads of bass, detailed highs, kinda sloppy in da mids there, I must admit. Had a larger soundstage than the RT5.

The RT5 was REALLY smooth, transitioned well between the mids and highs (the first Polk speaker I've owned to do that successfully) - extremely detailed in the highs and had nice punchy lows, however they lacked in output. The RT5 had problems producing a large soundstage, that is the only upgrade I can tell between the RT5 and RT35i.. IMO

The RTi70, only thing better about it was the soundstage, much larger...

As for the bass, it was bass I didn't want - really really sloppy...

Point is, towers are not ALWAYS better.

However, I recomended Mac a tower...now the choice is his! To bad he wont go used, so many options...so many options...

hehe, anyways...

As for loud car stereos with alot of bass (audiobliss) - If I ever got into CA, regardless of how my home system is setup, I would make sure I had some LOUD subwoofers in my car, BASSSSS

MacLeod

From the info here I think bookshelves are probably the best way for me to go.

Here's my thunkin':

I live in an apartment so a lot of bass will only get me evicted!

Im not much into big bass anyway, even in CA. MY system is tuned for the bass to be only an extension of the mids and thats about it. And if I ever get a house I can always invest in a comonent subwoofer then.

Detail and accuracy is the most important thing to me. I listen to a lot of metal and "boomier" speakers muddy up the sound too much where crisper, more detailed speakers sound much mroe natural.

And finally, Im limited by budget and for the same money, I can get better speakers if I go bookshelf.

All this sound about right?

audiobliss

Yeah, I'd say you've got it about right. However, I'm thinkin' here......how can I say this?.....lemme try this.....

---

Here is how much bass bookshelves with

---

a subwoofer would have.

---

Here is the level of how much bass you

---

can have in your apartment.

---

Here is how much bass floorstanders

---

would have.

---

And here is how much bass bookshelves

---

by themselves would have.




Above, I'm trying to say that floorstanders have more bass than bookshelves (no, duh). Bookshelves with a sub have more bass than floorstanders and probably more than you can handle in an apartment. So, what you have to do is decide if bookshelves by themselves have enough bass to suit your taste. If they don't, I imagine that any floorstander you can afford right now won't have too much bass for an apartment.

So, it depends on your taste.

A quick note, here; maybe you should talk to RuSsMaN about the L90e or whatever it was. He ordered a pair of them and was really impressed with the sound. I haven't heard one, but I imagine that it would be clear and precise enough for you.

Just go listen and see what you think!!

F1nut

Originally posted by audiobliss
Bookshelves with a sub have more bass than floorstanders

That's just not true.

Let's take Polk's PSW505:
Overall Frequency Response 23Hz - 160Hz
Lower -3dB Limit 28Hz

SDA SRS 1.2TL:
Overall Frequency Response 10Hz - 26kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 27Hz

SDA SRS 2.3TL:
Overall Frequency Response 12Hz - 26kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 30Hz

Carver Platinum Amazing:
23Hz - 40kHz (-3dB from reference level)

Now, I know some subs go lower and I know some floorstanders go lower, but to say that bookshelves with a sub have more bass isn't true very often. Most subs do not go lower than a good tower, not to mention that towers have a smoother overall frequency response than bookshelves with a sub.

2+2

Wow!! Those SDA SRS go really low!! That's done through a passive radiator?!? Definately not hype....

VR3

-3db is 27hz...

My SVS hits down to 15hz! (in-room)

Aint much like a seperate subwoofer, IMO -

Some speakers can go without em, but that is a slim few.

I must admit, the SDA SRS 1.2TL had amazing amounts of bass, even in my Dad's room...

dorokusai

F1 - I'll bring over some 12 - 26 hz test tones and blow your drivers and PR right out of the baskets. hehe

stereo55

Speaking of the T90e's ; Ive been comparing a set against my RTi6's (mains) since around Thanksgiving .
I do use my modest setup strictly for HT purposes so YMMV with music .
I can say Iam having a very hard time deciding which speaker I prefer at the moment . Both speakers have their advantages , but I try and narrow things down and keep it short .

MAIN POINTS between the two

T90e :
1) more noticeable mids due to extra drivers (in tv and dvd movies)
2) more bass in certain ranges ( more noticeable in DTS movies)
3)wider sound-field , but less depth than RTi6
4) matches fairly well with lower RTi series ; but there is a noticeable difference (but slight) , and does do quite well in HT with RTi4s/CSi3
5) small footprint /no stands needed

RTi6 :
1) slightly cleaner all around sound
2) mids slightly lacking , but still good
3) good depth , slightly smaller sound-field
4) seamless sound in HT when matched with other newer RTi/CSi line .

I still have a good month+ before the T90e's have to go back/or keep them (according to Tweeter's holiday schedule till 1/30/05) , so Iam going to take advantage of the long period and continue to compare the two till then . I will update as needed , if any .

audiobliss

Orignally posted by dorokusai
F1 - I'll bring over some 12 - 26 hz test tones and blow your drivers and PR right out of the baskets.

thank you, thank you, doro....



You have to compares similar equipment, here. We're considering 'average' subs and bookshelves, given the budget. Seems to me that the towers you're pulling up for comparison are quite above average, while the PSW505, at best, is average (so I've heard on this forum). Since we are talking about a modest budget, let's compare some modest subs and some modest towers.

I'll start off with an example that compare my (price-wise) above-average floorstanders to a (price-wise) average sub. My Klipsch RF-35 towers, with a price tag of $1k/pair, have a lower -3db limit of 37Hz. HSU's STF-2 that costs $400 has a lower -3db limit of (somebody help me out here, I'm not sure if this is right....) 25Hz. Hmm...seems the sub is creating a lot more bass than the floorstanders.....

Anyhoo, I may still be wrong.....I just figured that when considering floorstanders and subs in his budget (meaning, 'average' equipment of similar performance), the sub would have a lot more bass.

F1nut

Bring it on!

therealjeepguy

I have a pair of RTi6's and I listen to them most of the time in stereo without the sub, which is a Polk PSW-404 and when engaged, blends seemlessly and beautifully with them. However, these are very satisfying to listen to on their own and while they may not shake the floor, they perform excellent. I'd prefer quality over quantity any day, although they give a good bit of both IMO. This topic really drew me in, cause as it happens to be, I was debating whether or not to trade these babies in for the RTi8's, but the more I listen to them, the more I like them. I think they would benefit from a better receiver. I have a Sony STR-DA4ES. Thinkin' about a NAD T-753 to replace it. Besides I love the asthetics of the bookshelf speakers. They look so good on their OMNI Mount stands that match them perfectly!

dorokusai

What's the 4ES not doing for you?

LuSh

I think somewhere along the line people forgot stands. If your going to spend any coin on bookshelve speakers then buy stands. The recommended LSi9 stands are $300. You add that to the price of the speakers then people start to consider floorstanders.

If it was possible to create the "perfect" speaker. It would be no bigger then a marble and radiate sound all around. With a true response of 30khz - 20hz. That's every speaker designers dream. Size is a very hard issue to overcome because of timing errors when dealing with multiple drivers and cabinet resonance. Because it is hard to build speakers in a small compact design that can deliver that kinda response (And still be driven with affordable electronics), designers are forced to take another approach. Some don't and design almost full range bookshelve speakers like Vince Bruzzese from Totem. The Mani II's are one of handfull of bookshelve speakers that offer the dynamics of a much larger speaker, the problem is you need nearly $6,000 worth of solid state amplification to drive them because of their 85ish db sensitivity.

Bookshelve speakers will image better and have a more tightly knit package. You can throw out most of the response numbers people have given you. If gave an LSi15 a real 25hz frequency it would do one of two things, blow the driver or the port overhang would be so bloated you'd barely make out the note.

All things being equal I'd consider a bookshelve design over a floorstander if prices were within reach of each other. If I had the room I'd go for a true full range floorstanding speaker. It is however unfortunte that most of the floorstanding speakes are still out of my reach, even used.

dorokusai

Originally posted by LuSh
I think somewhere along the line people forgot stands.

I've never read a owners manual that didn't suggest something other than the floor or closet.

LuSh

They don't suggest using older speakers as stands either, althought I've seen people do it...

dorokusai

Originally posted by LuSh
They don't suggest using older speakers as stands either, althought I've seen people do it...

Using another speaker as a stand, is insulting to both speakers.

WJE

Originally posted by dorokusai
What's the 4ES not doing for you?

I was going to ask a similiar question. I wish I still had my 4ES. Way, way better than the new Sony ES gear that's out at the moment.