2 bass or not 2 bass?

shaddai

This past Black Friday, I was able to secure some great deals on entry level speakers from CC. I bought a pair of bookshelf R20's for $79.98 (includes $20 mail-in-rebate) and a CS1 center channel for $179.99. The CC guy tried to sell me R50's at $199.98 each and I said "no thanks!" Luckily, I was able to find them online at Fry's for $225.25 shipped (a pair of black R50's). I was able to reuse my current sub which is an 8" driven Aiwa TS-W60 rated at 120w. All told, this is a fairly solid entry-level system for my small condo's living room.

Now here's the problem! My living room is actually a living room/dining room combo so there is a lot of excess space behind the couches (couches are approximately located in the halfway point of the room). In addition, the TV was put into one of the corners of the room so the mains are about half a foot away from either side of the TV. Anyone who knows of my 32" Sony model knows that it usually takes about 3 friends to move it around so for all intents and purposes, it's not going anywhere! Due to the non-ideal nature of my setup, I went out and bought a Radio Shack SPL digital meter and calibrated my speakers to within 1-2 dB of each other, while sitting in my usual spot. At this point, I had my mains (R50's) set to "large" and everything else to "small" with an RCA cable from the Onkyo's sub-out to the sub itself. On the sub's "turnover", I dialed it to 160hz and the phase to 0 (the receiver crossover set at 80hz). I used ROTK's "The Battle of Pelennor Fields " to get the rumble from the mumakils to test my system. It sounded ok but the impact was still not there. I next set the R50's to "small" with everything else remaining the same and noticed more subwoofer activity as expected. I've heard arguments both for why the R50's should be set to "large" or "small" but am still not convinced that the R50 is at fault for the lack in punch. The sub is currently located in front of the left-main R50 but to its left (not blocking the port). Corner-loading the sub is not an option.

1. Should I invest in a sub with a larger driver and larger frequency range (and if so, which ones would you recommend if my budget is $300 or less)? Note that my setup is for 80% movies and 20% music.

2. Would any sub upgrade over the Aiwa be overkill since the R-series is entry-level to begin with?

3. Should I consider speaker-level connections to the sub (ie. the Polk way) instead of line-out from the receiver? Would this give a greater frequency range than my current setup?

Thanks for any advice you can give me!

jdhdiggs

1). Comp USA is clearing out HSU VTF-2's for well under $300 and they are about as good as you'll find for that $$$

2). Not really. Think future expansion. Also, the sub is the foundation for a home theatre so having it be nicer than the speakers is not an issue.

3). I wouldn't, it adds a bunch of wires and isn't as clean. Setting all your speakers to small and having the reciever move the information is much more clean and sufficient.

You may want to look for some used buttkickers or the like to increase impact without increasing volume.

Hope this helped...

shaddai

Thanks for the reply, jdhdiggs! CompUSA is not the first place that comes to mind when it comes to home audio but I do know they like to sell HTIB. I searched the online version of CompUSA and the Hsu VTF-2 doesn't show up (no Hsu subs for that matter). I'll call my local store to see if they have any in stock. I guess the performance I'm looking for will cost at least $500. Time to save up!

jdhdiggs

The HSU's don't show up anymore because they are discountinuing them, hence the good deal.

As for why they are discountinuing them: CompUSA knows squat about setting them up so they don't sond as good as the one-note pounders that surround them so they don't sell then customers jump online and say that the HSU sounded like ^(&% and that no-one should order them. Better for both companies this way methinks..

Still mad that I didn't pick up the ventriliquest system for $125

Dr. Spec

I guess the performance I'm looking for will cost at least $500. Time to save up!

PB10-ISD $429 plus shipping. It will make your entire system sound like a million bucks. All speaks set to small and you will have clean, flat, and deep bass to below 20 Hz. It will not overwhelm your system, and is perfect for condo dwellers.

shaddai

Thanks for the recommendation, Dr. Spec! I was reading a review on just that sub at Secrets of Home Theater & High Fidelity and that's where I got the idea to test my system out with ROTK and other movies. The PB10-ISD is still a little costly though and my wallet is hurting from Xmas shopping. I'll consider this my "reach sub", at least until the holiday bills are paid in full.

Electronics Expo has the Velodyne CHT10 for $177 this week. I would pay tax but not shipping since it would be a pickup. Should I jump on this deal or is this Velodyne's performance not much of an upgrade over my current Aiwa sub?

sowen010599

The CHT 10 is not a bad little sub at all. You have to be careful though, don't turn your back on them. You might come home to a few Aiwa crumbs strewn about and the power cord hanging out the vent of a well fed, and very satisfied Velodyne.

The CHT is nice, and a big step from what you have, but it doesn't really compare with the PB10-ISD. They are in different leagues.

The CHT-10 MSRP's at $499, street is ~$200-350. If you can pick it up for $177, I'd say go for it.

Some googled info for you.....
http://www.hometheatermag.com/subwoofers/177/index.html

Dr. Spec

I was reading a review on just that sub at Secrets of Home Theater & High Fidelity

That guy doesn't know jack about subwoofers....... OK, just kidding.....full dislosure - I authored that review.

The CHT 10 is "OK" (and certainly light years ahead of the Aiwa), but I think ultimately you will find it lacking as your taste in bass gets further refined over time.

The PB10-ISD gives up absolutely zero to its bigger brothers in terms of SQ and will satisfy even the most discerning bass heads. Save your coin and make the stretch.

jdhdiggs

Following what Ed said, it is worth it to save your pennies and get the best sub you can stretch to get as it is the one piece of equipment that tends to have a long shelf life and if it is producing quality bass, the only change you would need to make is when you move to a much larger room.

What does this mean? It means that even if you upgrade all of your current speaker to $4000/speaker type speakers, you shouldn't need to change your sub unless the room size drastically increases. Also, SVS' seem to hold value much better than other brands.

shaddai

Wow, it's good to finally meet one of the people from the numerous articles I've read on the internet! "Secrets" is one of my favorite sites. Keep up the good work, Ed!

I think I'll take everyone's advice and just wait until after Xmas to purchase a sub I can be proud of. I forgot to mention that my condo is carpeted and I live on the second floor with elderly neighbors living in the floor below. Even if I got the SVS, hearing its true potential will probably have to wait until I get a real house. I bought my first DVD-Audio yesterday, Blue Man Group's "The Complex". I can't wait to hear that on a bass system where the drums can come alive!

I have some additional questions which should be much easier to answer:

1) Does the length of subwoofer cable affect it's ability to carry the signal? I was thinking ahead and opted for a 25' Acoustics Research sub cable instead of a 15' because I have no idea how big my future home theater room will be.

2) My wife enjoys putting picture frames and various items on top of the speakers and sub. I have them removed currently since I feel it may affect sound reproduction. Does MDF make it ok to have objects on speakers or do you want as minimal contact as possible?

3) Does SVS offer discounts for Polkies?

Thanks for all your help, guys!

Dr. Spec

The longer cable won't affect SQ, but it may be more prone to picking up AC noise unless it is well shielded.

The knick knacks on the sub might rattle at higher volumes; otherwise they won't affect the SQ per se.

AFAIK, SVS does not offer Polkies any discounts. They usually offer discounts to returning customers and/or multiple sub buyers.

Dr. Spec

Double post.............

shaddai

Ed,

It's been some time since my last post. In the last few months, I moved out of the condo to a house and bought a new speaker system for a dedicated home theater (my Polks and Aiwa sub now stay in the living room). Here's the home theater setup:

Mains - Definitive Technology BP7002 x 2
Center - Definitive Technology C/L/R 2500
Surrounds - Definitive Technology BPX x 2
Projector - BenQ 8700+
Receiver - Rotel RSX-1067
DVD player - Oppo Digital OPDV971H (based on Kris Deering's benchmark expose!)

I thought I would be happy with the built-in subs of the BP7002 and 2500 but I'm not. The system seems to lack the extra oomph needed in a good home theater. This is all the more apparent during the 30Hz and 20Hz Heartbeat tracks of Dr. Chesky's 5.1 Surround Show. I know you've recommended SVS subs in the past and I'm debating b/w the 20-39PCi and the 20-39PC+. Why would I choose one over the other and is port-tuning that important for my 13.5' x 14.5' home theater?

In the high end retail side (ie. non-internet sales), I'm considering REL's Q series (108E or 150E). Any opinions on REL subs? Thanks for listening!

- Eric

aaharvel

hey there. depends on if you listen to your new R50's more for movies or music.

I have a Velodyne Cht-10 that i got for $199 shipped at electronicsexpo.com and I love it- mostly for it's ability to play music well- something that Velodyne is better than most at.

I can't speak for the others but they all sound like great advice as well- but for me, for the $ and it's ability to go down to 28hz and handle music with aplomb- the CHT10 is all I need. Whatever you decide- you'll get plenty of great advice on here.



Fronts- Rti-4
Center- Csi-3
Sides- f/xi-3 (dipole)
Rears- f/x300i (dipole)
Sub- Velodyne CHT 10

VR3

Hell yeah! Awesome system! Congrats! I wish I could hear it!!

Envious I am...

The PC+ subs are tunable - IE: It can go from 20hz, to 16hz, to 12hz (I think)... but the 20hz tune will be fine. It also uses a much better driver, the PCi driver cost 120 dollars where as the PC+ driver costs upwards of over 200!... Definite quality change..

The PC+ series also has a larger amp. So in other words, the sub is bigger, badder, and better.

As for the CHT - it will be left in the dust by the PB 10... much less the PCi or PC+

Quick tips on placing your bipolar mains...

1) 2 feet out from the wall, atleast 1.5 ft from side walls... Toe them in to the listening position, not exactly pointing at your ears, slightly to the side of that...

shaddai

aaharvel,

I considered the CHT10 once but that's all behind me now. I need something that will reach below 28Hz and shake the room! I want to hear the T-rex stomp in JP, feel the depth charges of U-571, and marvel at the drum army in Blue Man Group's The Complex.

Sid,

I'm still waiting to hear from Ed but I think you made some key points b/w the PC+ and PCi. Also, thanks for the positioning advice on the bipolars. I think I have them too close to the rear wall.

jdhdiggs

Sids right on the money.

If you are waiting to here from Doc, well, he's more on the HT spot and HTF than here. IIRC, the + is about 3-4.5 dB more capable than the isd along with a bit cleaner and tunable

VR3

May want to get the 25-31 PC+... this will be better for music, and will have plenty of room gain. Not to mention you can always plug a port to get that 20hz tune... a 12 hz tune (or w/e it is) wont do you much good, especially since it will limit the output.

gregure

Originally posted by shaddai
In the high end retail side (ie. non-internet sales), I'm considering REL's Q series (108E or 150E). Any opinions on REL subs? Thanks for listening!

REL subs are amazing. If you really want a kickass sub, I think an upgrade to the Q 201 would be appropriate. This sub is absolutely amazing for what it can do w/ a single 10" driver. It outperforms the SVS PB 10 easily, and in a much smaller box (literally 1/2 the size if not smaller). It isn't cheap, but it will be the most flexible sub you can get.

It has two connections, and 4 modes. Connection 1: RCA LFE input, Connection 2: Speak-On, a cable that you plug into the +/- of one speaker, and - of the other, for a truly integrated musical performance. Mode 1/3 are for music, which tends to be less earthshaking, but much more musical, and Modes 2/4 are for movies, which have the impact you would come to expect from a HT sub. Really a superb little sub. The 150 has the same features, and would be a great sub as well, but would not shake the room as much as the 201.

I would also wholeheartedly recommend the Grotto from Martin Logan. Another compact single 10" driver rated to 22 Hz, but is sealed so will drop gradually off and give you some nice performance a few Hz lower than that. It is tight, articulate, earth shaking bass, and would also be an excellent addition to your system. Not quite the same flexibility as the REL, but the Grotto is still a rather musical sub due to its tight, non-boomy bass output. And at only $1000, it is much less expensive than the Q201.

Before you go and run out and buy a new sub, however, a word of advice. The Def Tech 7002's are great speakers for HT, and if you are not getting sub bass performance from the built in subs, there is something amiss, as these things are meant to go below 20 Hz.

If you are only using speaker cables, this may be the issue. If you aren't already, use a Y-splitter from the sub preout on your Rotel, and buy two sub cables, for the LFE input on each of the speakers. I think you will find that you will notice a big difference in bass output if you connect the speakers this way, rather than simply sending a speaker cable to the towers. If you are already going with these connections, and are still not getting what you want, have fun buying a new sub.

Awesome system. I'm curious what you paid. Magnolia has that exact package (7002's, 2500, BP2X) for $3000.

shaddai

gregure,

I paid about $3500 for the DT speakers from 6 Ave Electronics. We only recently got a Magnolia here in the Best Buy at West Paterson, NJ. It grand opened first week of June but I bought way back in April. Didn't know anything about Magnolia until I visited SF in March. I was glad to see one open up on the east coast.

Concerning the subwoofer hookup, I am not using speaker wire but RCA sw cable. From the Rotel, I have a single cable from the LFE out attached to a Y-cable which individually feed the LFE-in on the BP7002 mains. I also have a sw cable from the Rotel center pre-out to the C/L/R 2500 LFE-in. I am using RCA couplers to connect lengths of sw cable since the receiver and audio rack are in the rear and the mains and center channel are in the front. These couplers should not be the culprit as I've heard the performance of the speakers with a single-length connection as well. The gains for the front speakers are dialed at 1 o'clock. DT literature says my BP7002's should go down to 15 Hz and the C/L/R 2500 should go down to 21 Hz. Real world measurements have them dropping out around 30 Hz using Avia bass tones. Currently my mains and center are set to "large." My Rotel does allow individual crossover settings for each "group" so I can make all my speakers "small" and adjust crossover accordingly.

My system is 70% movies, 20% music, and 10% PC gaming. My mind is pretty made up on getting a seperate sub. The question boils down to which cylinder SVS?

VR3

1) Definitive publishes "overall" measurements. If you email Chet at DT and request -3db response notes, he will gladfully tell you the response. But 30hz is about right actually.

2) DT is just like Polk in the respect that their subwoofers absolutely suck compared to their speakers. This falls true with the powered towers as well, but I admit their current powered tower subs are MUCH better than the last line.

You will need a subwoofer with DT's powered towers, even the TOTL 7000SC. I am personally waiting on DT to update the BP line with the new midbasses and tweeters! Dosnt look to be any time soon though.

DT speakers sound great, but they require alot of tinkering with placement...so keep moving them around...even when you find something you like...put tape around their position you like...then keep moving them...you may better it! Trust me...I've owned mine for about a year and I am just now finding spots that sound absolutely freakin awesome!

I would go with the SVS 25-31 PC+

VR3

Also, DO NOT run a LFE cable to your center channel. It is not designed for it.

shaddai

Sid,

Did you mean the center channel was "not meant" for LFE-in or "not designed" for LFE? It certainly has the option for LFE-in and the manual states it should come from the center channel pre-out. As far as bass response, it is definitely weaker than the built-in subs of the mains. I have to set the gain at about 3 or 4 o'clock to get the same volume as the mains dialed at 1 o'clock.

Once I get a dedicated sub, I shouldn't have to run any LFE cables to the mains or the center, right? As a matter of fact, I shouldn't even need to power them since I would have no more use for the built-in amps, right?

VR3

Keep the mains running, the midbasses are crossed around 100-90hz... and you dont want to cut them off. You want the right main reproducing the right signal, and the left reproducing the left. Now...if you have the center reproducing center channel bass - that is fine. Just dont hook it up to the LFE channel, where its reproducing all the bass ya know?

Do not disable the subs though, just dial them in for music as you like it (1 oclock is to much, stick to 12 oclock)... then leave it alone then dial in the seperate sub. Do the same for the center channel, keep it where the vocals dont sound bloated or something...

You should NEVER turned those volume knobs past 12 oclock, 1 oclock would be your MAX.