SVS PB10 vs PB12 - which best for me?

liljeffatl

I'm in the process of upgrading my speaker system. I'll have RTi 8's as fronts, CSi 5 for the center, FXi 30's as rear left/right (bought last year), and RTi 4's for back surround. I got the RTI 8's knowing I'd get great highs/mids but not much punch. I don't care about punch with the front speakers since I always set them to "small" and send all the low-end signals to a subwoofer.

The subwoofer I currently have is an Acoustic Research 12" 130Watt one that's at least 5 years old. While it's 12", it clearly doesn't have a ton of power. With the gain up all the way, I occassionally "feel" the bass and it's adequete, but I'm definitely ready for an upgrade. I was going to get a Polk and use the $199 discount on Crutchfield to get either the PSW 404 or PSW 505. I've heard the 10" Polks aren't great, so was considering ploppin' the big bucks on the PSW 505.

After reading this forum, it seems clear that I'd get a lot more 'bang' for my buck by getting an SVS Subwoofer, a company I'd never heard of until now. Now I'm trying to figure out which one would work best with my system. I'm not trying to rattle all my windows, but nice, high quality bass would be nice. I'm seriously considering the PB10 (I want a box not a cylinder). It certainly has enough power, I just wasn't sure if I'd notice anything lacking since it's a 10" rather than a 12". Therefore, I'm also considering the PB12, though that's more than I initially wanted to spend.

My living room itself is about 16.5' x 15'. It's open to the kitchen (a bar separates the two) and there's a half wall behind the couch that is open to the office. The TOTAL space is 22'x25', though all of the speakers and seating positions are within the living room. This is a loft so it has high 12' ceilings and the walls generally don't go all the way to the ceiling, so sound carries throughout the loft.

So, should the PB10 be enough for me? Thoughts?

dorokusai

So, should the PB10 be enough for me? Thoughts?

Nope. You need a larger sub for that area.

sowen010599

You're gonna need a serious sub to pressurize an area that large. I would start by looking at the PB12-ISD/2 as a minimum.

McLoki

I was in a simiar situation to you when I purchased my SVS. My room was very large and I was running 2 10" subs that weren't that great but I though of as "adequate"

That being said, I am very happy with my 12" svs. (it is a tube, not a box) For your area/budget, I would go for the 12" sub. It will not pressurize your room, but chances are you have never experienced it anyway so you will not really know what you are missing. (Mine will not pressurize my room either, but it does put out a good amount of bass and is a significant improvement over what I had.) You can always add another 12" sub later if you choose to. For your room volume you need as much air movement as you can get.

I also encourage you to e-mail svs customer support and ask their opinion. They will not try to steer you wrong and will at least let you know the best bang for your buck considering your room size and budget. (that way at least you will know what you are missing by not having unlimited funds)

Good luck and I do think the SVS is a great choice.

Michael

kingtut

My family room size is 12' x 13' x 9', which opens up to the kitchen (w/no wall) 12' x 20' x9". The total size is 24' x 33' x 9'. I have a Hsu VTF-3 MK II in a corner next to my couch, and the volume dial on the Hsu is at 1/4 of the full volume. The bass produced by the VTF3 is enough to shake my walls. The VTF3 blends in well for both music and HT. You might want to check out the Hsu VTF3, in addition to the SVS. They have the rosewood finish on sale now for $700, $200 off the reg. price. The box size of the VTF3 is smaller than the PB12. I don't believe that you can go wrong w/either SVS or Hsu, but SVS seems to have better customer services.

dave shepard

PB12-plus/2 or PB12-ultra/2 in a room that size. You will not reqret it one bit.

Dave

liljeffatl

I'll e-mail SVS to see what they say, but sounds like I'd be happier w/ the PB12. I think the PB12+ would be too much for me (in the pocket book, too large for where I'm putting it, and if I turned it up and used all of it's power, it would probably completely overpower other speakers which are only powered at 100W each).

Feel free to post more comments, I'll let everyone know what SVS says and what I end up doing.

Early B.

You'll be fine with the PB12 as long as it is placed next to your seating position. Otherwise, you'll need lots more sub.

hejiraent

liljeff,

I started with one SVS cylinder and it was enough to impress everyone I did a demo for. I can't imagine an SVS box would differ that greatly. But I have never heard the box.

Just out of personal curiosity, why do you dislike the cylinders?

liljeffatl

I don't dislike them. In fact, they are smaller in some ways, and cheaper. However, given where it's going (in the corner under a spiral staircase), the only cylinder that would fit vertically would be the 25-31. I believe the PB12 box has a lower frequency response, though I asked SVS about that as well.

I sent them an e-mail a few days back but haven't heard anything back. I may not be able to wait, as I want to get it soon.

hejiraent

I have only emailed the SVS techs 2 times and they have gotten back to me within 24 hours both times.

Tis the season, I guess.....

Try one. You can always get a second one.

liljeffatl

I never heard back from SVS. Oh well.

I was trying to do a comparison of several of their models, but their frequency response charts seem to be in 2 different formats. The PB12-ISD (and PB10-ISD) indicate dB levels at certain frequences (mostly 80dB - 95dB), while some of the other models like the 25-31 PCI and PB12-ISD/2 have a chart that shows dB's in a range of -20 - 0. How would one compare the frequency response between these two different kinds of charts?

VR3

The PCI 25-31 can be tuned to 22hz, you have to request it. It is free though.

It is then an equivelant of the PB12 and cost substantially less and is ALOT easier to move...

My PCi 25-31 is tuned to 22hz and I can hit down to 15hz, in my small room!:p

hejiraent

I can't vouch for them adjusting their subs for lower frequencies, but with each of my subs I got a kit that could lower my lowest frequency from 16Hz to 12Hz....ultimately, I would have to do this myself as apposed to them doing it. I have a cylindrical model though. That may make a diffrence.

I was also told the total sound would be compromised to some extent, should I choose to use this kit. I have never altered my subs, so I have nothing to report on that end.

Dr. Spec

I never heard back from SVS. Oh well.

Double check the email addy you are using. Many people send to the wrong addy and don't even realize it.

I was trying to do a comparison of several of their models, but their frequency response charts seem to be in 2 different formats. The PB12-ISD (and PB10-ISD) indicate dB levels at certain frequences (mostly 80dB - 95dB), while some of the other models like the 25-31 PCI and PB12-ISD/2 have a chart that shows dB's in a range of -20 - 0. How would one compare the frequency response between these two different kinds of charts?

Ignore the relative differences between the dB levels on these charts. Look at flatness and extension only.

And only look at the LMS software FR sweeps (which may not yet be available on the website for every model). These were the sweeps generated outside and 2 meters so they are apples to apples.

liljeffatl

I resent my e-mail, and got a nice long informative response from them. They said the frequency response and "sound" of the models I'm now considering (PB12-ISD, 25-31PC and 25-31PC+) are all very similar. Based on all the information I gave him, he said the 25-31PC+ would be best due to the huge space I have. If not that, 25-31PC is the next choice.

I will likely end up buying the 25-31PC+, though it's more than I had originally planned on spending. I may also place it closer to the seating position. I could possibly have it within 5' if I put it next to the couch, or about 8' if I put it by the wall. This compared to the 15' or so it would be away if I put it in the corner as I had originally planned. I guess the main question with placement would be if the benefits to putting it closer outweigh the detriment of not having it in a corner.

sowen010599

Placement is absolutely critical when it comes to subs. Distance from the listening position is not. It's just something you will have to play with. Having to sub too close to you destroys it's ability to seamlessly integrate with the rest of your system.

The way the sound waves from the sub interact with the structure of your room makes all the difference with performance. Get the longest sub cable you will need to put the sub as far away from the mains as possible, and move the sub around the room until you find a home for it. It needs to be placed where it's response is as flat as possible and where you can't tell the sub is even on. Ideally, you won't be able to tell if the bass is coming from the sub or your mains.

jdhdiggs

Destroys seemless integration? Not neccessarily... If you calibrate it and set the distance right in your controller, it will be seamlessly integrated regardless of where you place it. However, it might not produce a linear response or sound great in all locations.

Giving up distance for boundry re-enforcement is a tricky trade off at best (as far as dB goes) Boundry reinforcment is typically ~3dB per boundry within one wavelength of the sub (so ~6 in a corner, ~3 against a wall) The problem is you lose ~3 db every additional 2/3rd distance added.

Sowen gave some good advice as to try as many positions as you can to find the best for you. You could always put the sub at the listnening position and walk- around the room to find the bass sweet spots without rolling the sub around the room.

kingtut

I agree w/jdhdiggs. I have my sub located in the back corner & under end end-table (about 3-4 ft from my sofa) and calibrated it with the RadShack SPL meter, and I have no problem w/integration w/music and movie. My friends came over and thought that the bass was coming out of the front speakers.

liljeffatl

I will likely keep it in the corner where it is now (15' away from seating position). I plan on calibrating it, and I'm sure it will provide more than enough power to reach my seating position. I have a sub in that corner now, and you definitely can't tell where the bass is coming from.

Oh, by the way, I forked out and ended up getting the 25-31+. Based on it's price, if I'm not absolutely blown away by the difference from my current sub, I'll be highly disappointed. I just spent more on the sub than my front 2 speakers (Rti 8's).

kingtut

Congrats. Please post your impression when it arrives.

liljeffatl

Um, like holy ****. There's no way I could possibly use anywhere close to this thing's full power. I only did a quick hook-up and haven't really balenced everything out yet.

In any case, first impression was it is bigger than I thought it was. Actually it could be an issue because it may be about an inch too tall to put it where I want to put it, in a back corner under a spiral staircase.

It definitely puts out sounds that I've never heard before. It will take awhile to get used to the tonal difference between this and what I had before. I'm also really going to have to mess with the levels because at quieter times it almost seems not punchy enough (odd I know), but when it gets loud it's overpowering. I may have to readjust my "bass peak" level on my reciever, which will cap the volume of the subwoofer at a certain level so you don't break any windows and also test out the phase levels, etc.

I watched a bit of Lord of the Rings and could FEEL the air move sitting at least 10 feet away from the sub.

My only negative thought (and most of you will think I'm nuts) is that I probably don't need anything close to this, as I doubt there's any way I could take advantage of the sheer power it CAN put out. If the size ends up being an issue, I may end up going back to the PB-12 box, which WILL fit.

More soon...

Dr. Spec

Disable all bass peak limiters. See comments below about DRC and dynamic range of the subwoofer.

Also make sure the LFE channel (".1") level is not being attenuated (usually this control has a 0 to -10 range; leave it at 0).

Disable all Dynamic Range Control circuits in the DVD player and the AVR. Sometimes referred to as Midnight Mode.

Set all speaks to small, xo to 80 Hz, and the sub to on/yes.

Calibrate with Avia or the AVR test tones - don't use DVE.

I'm also really going to have to mess with the levels because at quieter times it almost seems not punchy enough (odd I know), but when it gets loud it's overpowering.

The lack of punch you are hearing is actually a flat mid-bass region; something your previous sub lacked. This is a common impression from new SVS owners. Once you get used to this, you won't be able to tolerate a boomy mid-bass from lesser subs.

The overpowering sensation is probably due to 2 things - 1) possibly an overly hot calibration, and 2) this subwoofer has extreme dynamic capability and will not compress SPL peaks like your previous unit.

Now you will understand what someone means when they say the bass in a certain DVD is overcooked, because it will sound that way on the SVS. Conversely, well mixed bass will sound natural and blend nicely.

The LOTR series is generally overcooked - especially the DD tracks; the DTS is better, but still hot. These are great for demo's but it can be overbearing at times. Just drop the sub level a few clicks at the pre-pro for hot DVDs and you'll be fine.

liljeffatl

Thanks for the advice. I definitely have dynamic compression/midnight mode ON, so I'll need to turn that off. Also, based on my experimentation, I'll need to adjust the subwoofer level via the reciever for different kinds of sources and DVD's. I noticed a big difference in sound levels even between DVD"s. Aliens for example wasn't nearly as much bass as newer movies.

I also forgot to mention that I didn't realize these aren't video shielded! I'm surprised w/ all the reading I did I didn't notice this fact. This could be another deal-breaker, as the height of the cylinder would mean I have to have it closer to the TV than I had originally planned, and it will likely interfere. If this is the case, I may just exchange this for the PB-12. We shall see.

Willow

I'd love to hear an svs or hsu....no one around has 1: never heard of it or 2: doesn't have one...... one day...

opus

Originally posted by liljeffatl
Um, like holy ****. .

There it is SVS. Your new company Logo. Make my shirt a XXL.

On a serious note can you add a pb10 to a room with a pc+ 25-31? Do box's and cylinder's mix?