Budget Polk/ Outboard Amp Install Recommendations

Tour2ma

Howdy... My 1st post south of the Polk Forum border.. ahh the thrill of being a Polk newbie again...

Here's the situation... The wife's 1993 Civic is pushing 240k on the ol' odometer so while I don't want to put major buckos into a system, she deserves better than the base Honda in-dash and blown door mount speakers she's running now (no rears, although, of course, the wiring is there).

So I am thinking for Christmas new Polks all the way around and an outboard amp so they'll be less inclined to disintegrate when she tries to crank it...... and she will...

So I'd appreciate suggestions on the Polks, the amp and places to shop, both B&M and internet...

If you have a cost competitive electronics recommendations, that would provide both reasonable power and indash CD capability, I'd welcome those as well.

Thanks in advance...

Jstas

WHEEEE!!!!! This is gonna be fun! Now I have something to do while on hotline shift!

exalted512

how much do you want to spend total??
that and are the front speakers 6.5s?

Jstas

OK Crotchfeel.com says that your 93 Cibbic has either 5.25 inch or 6.5 inch speakers in the front and rear. I'm not 100% sure which one it is given the information you have provided. Best thing to do would be to call up Crutchfield and see if they can give an idea on how to determine this short of pulling the car apart.

Now pay attention here Cody and anyone else who is going to ask for budget stuff...
Since this is for your wife, you said you want it fairly inexpensive but you want to use Polk products 4 speakers at each corner and an amp will work out just fine.

For the speakers, I'd say to go with the DB's all around but Crutchfield says that they don't fit all locations. I don't know what thier criteria is. They are all, DB and MMC series, of teh same relative depth but cutout diameters may be different. If that is the case, it's nothing that a mounting ring or a metal file can't solve quickly enough.

If you can get a semi-easy fit, go for the 6.5 inch MOMO Carbon series up front and the DB 5.25's out back.

For amplification, go with this amplifier.

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13124



It's from the Nemesis line from Hifonics and it's built with the same guts as thier upscale Zeus line but without all the bells and whistles. It's dark colored with a satin finish so it hides well. It's got oodles of clean power and at $180 a pop, it's got incredible bang for the buck. I've used this amp in another install and I couldn't have been more please with the sound. This is only about 50 watts RMS of crystal clear power so any speaker you buy, Polk Audio or not, this amp will handle without a problem. It's stout, clean and cheap with chisled good looks! Literally! It looks like they cut the amp out of a solid block of anodized aluminum! What more could you ask for?

As far as head units with CD players, I've always liked Kenwood or Pioneer. They are clean, even the cheaper models from the two companies are clean, they are robust in thier functions and performance, sharp looks and in my experience, stone cold reliable. I don't think you could go wrong with a nice 200-300 model from either Kenwood or Pioneer.

Bottom line though, you get what you pay for and stay away from Sony. That list of stuff up there though, it's about 400 so far. Add 250 for a head unit and your wife will have a rockin' stereo in her Cibbic! Keep in mind though that you will need to get an amplifier wiring kit, if you get a head unit (i.e.: stereo in da dash) you will need a mounting kit and you will also need RCA cables. Please, spend some money on the RCA cables. They are, hands down, the best investment towards sound quality and proper operation of the stereo that you can make in the automotive world. So yes, this is one place where cable quality will be worth the extra money you pay for it.

Honestly too, if you wanted to, you could probably get out of this for less than $1,000 if you included a small subwoofer too. That's entirely up to you though. Be careful though, you may like your wife's stereo so much you may want one if YOUR car too!

Jstas

Sorry, forgot about places to shop.

For the speakers, if you are planning on using stock wiring then you'll want pig tails to go with your speakers. Honestly though, it'd be worth it to run your own speaker wire. Either way, Crutchfield gives you free kits and installation instructions but you pay a bit more. sounddomain.com is cheaper but you have to pay for the smae stuff that Crutchfield gives away for free. Best thing to do is find the speakers you need/like and then find out what you need to put them in and then find the cheapest price you can. www.froogle.com usually has the major audio discounters within thier records so starting there will help you out.

For the amplifier, I honestly can't think of a better amp than that Hifonics for $180 price point. That is your best deal right there and onlinecarstereo.com is a great place to work with. Customer service is not as good as Polk Audio themselves but then again, whose is? Anyway, got 3 amps and a subwoofer from them for an install. One amp was out of stock so they offered me another one of similar specs as a replacement with a discount. So they are cool in my book. Fast shipping too. They are a safe bet.

For the head unit, the thing to worry about the most is getting a mounting kit that fits the car. Depending on what is involved, Crutchfield will give you that for free too. sounddomain.com makes you buy it but they are usually pretty cheap. Beyond that, price car vary from full-retail like Crutchfield has all the way down to about 40% off but then you are getting into sketchy areas with companies being shady at best so buyer beware.

As far as wiring kits, speaker wire and interconnects, stay away from Monster Cable...you already know why. My favorite companies are StreetWires and EsotericAudio. Scosche makes excellent power and speaker wire too but thier interconnects leave alot to be desired. KnuKonceptz.com has nice stuff too but thier catalog is a bit lacking in selection compared to what you can get from StreetWires and Scosche. For interconnects, my favorite ones are the StreetWires ZeroNoise wires. I've used sets from each series, the ZN2.0's, the ZN3.0's, the ZN3.5's, the ZN5.0's and the ZN6.0's. I have yet to use a better interconnect or find one of similar or better quality for the same price. I like them so much I have used them in my home stereo stuff too.

Hope all this helps some.

MacLeod

My $.02.

I second the suggestion of going with the DB series. They will better suited to a lower power system. If youre not going to go 75-150 watts per channel then there really no need to go with the Momo series.

As far as amps, Im not a big fan of Hifonics. Ive never used them but I keep hearing about reliability issues. However it is going to be hard to beat $190 for a good 50x4 amp.

That being said I would suggest something like this Phoenix Gold or this MTX . Both of these are a little pricier but are very good quality amps. For something a little cheaper there is this Profile which although cheap is well built and makes solid power. There is also this Alpine which you can usually pick up at Circuit City for $170 or so. I had this one for a while and though its not very powerful its clean as a whistle and worked fine, plus its an Alpine!

As far as places to shop, I recommend sticking with authorized dealers like SoundDomain.com and Crutchfield. And for wires there all pretty much the same. Check out Sounddomain and see what theyve got, theyre all pretty much the same quality.

Joelsbass

I second jstas's opinion...

spwuinmk67

Would ditching the rears and getting a better set of speakers for up front be a possibilty? Because unlike HT, you get better sound when it's just up front.

Tour2ma

Ah... a reply I to which I can relate... LOL...

Thanks all for taking the time to reply, with an extra helping to John...

The one time I checked out the Polks at CC they started talking the install kits I needed and I froze like a deer in headlights... Not a complete car install neophyte, but one install 25 years ago does not a veteran make...

Going doors only may make sense... Was planning to go for that "trunk loaded" bass response, too, but if I get an amp/ Polk combo that will hold together, maybe the doors only option would be enough... If it isn't, I could always add the rears for my lady's B-day, in Feb. Plus doors only opens the possibility for a new head unit this go-round, but this could slide to Feb as well... I’ve discovered that gifts that automatically generate future gifts help save racking the ol' bean for new ideas.

$1000 system would be nice, but would also near double the value of the vehicle.. LOL... Was hoping to stay around $300 - $400 for now leaving plenty of room for other gifts (after all there is a "list" to which I must pay some attention). Looks like amp plus doors will keep me in or under that range. And I can add a head unit without going too far above it…

John and Aggie-boy,
Forgot to mention she has the 4-door sedan. Looks like these are my Polk options:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-3YOYpv...&SearchDisplay=
I think the current fronts are 5-1/4's... but it looks like the 6-1/2's are "best picks"... of course they are also the more expensive picks (surprise)...

What about co-axial vs. component? My '94 Accord (a measly 165k old) has component install up front, and she's commented on it in the past. How much more install headache would I be buying there? I can see the driver's side tweeter being a bit of a challenge. Wouldn't think the passenger side with the glove box pulled would be too bad...

Head unit-wise… here is the Crutchfield “fit list”…
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-3YOYpv26Nj7/cgi-bin/ProdGroup.asp?c=3&s=0&cc=01&g=300
There is both a Kenwood and a Pioneer near the low end of the range. I assume power is a non-issue, with an outboard amp in the mix. “Eye-appeally” speaking, I think more black and less silver would fit my wife’s better, but I may be imposing my own bias here. Can always exchange, if our first choice is not her’s…

Another home audio based question… if I go with doors only for now with a head unit and 4 ch outboard, can I bi-amp the door speakers? Obviously this would require wiring, but I hate leaving available power sitting idle… Or are 4 ch car amps bridgeable to 2 ch’s?

Once settled on choices, I will shop price some, but Crutchfield’s CS, exchange policies, etc. may be worth a few added bucks for to me.

More than enough reply to both entertain and challenge you all…

Again thanks for the help…

okiepolkie

Yes, you can bridge the front and rear channels of the amp to increase power to your fronts.

RuSsMaN

I've got a couple Ex-12's, new in the box you can have for peanuts. That is, if you want to knock the rig out in one punch.

Cheers,
Russ

exalted512

ok, heres what id do
first off, id ditch rear speakers, they blur your sound quality in a small enviroment like a car
the only reason id leave them is if you constantly have people in the back seat, but even then, most of the time when you have a bunch of ppl in the car youre not listening to music, youre talking so speakers dont really come into play anyway
some ppl disagree, but if it saves you money and improves sound quality...you know the rest
buts lets start from the brain of the system, the head unit
this is always the first thing i recommend getting
a head unit alone will increase the sound quality of your stockers because the little internal amp is light years ahead of most stock head units...aside from like subaru who actually put nakamichi hu's in some of their austrailian cars...crazy
my favorite is by far Pioneer
they have everything from your basic starter head unit to your totl competition grade head units
but with Pioneer, most of their head units incorporate the "bling bling" factor
http://www.electronicscity.com/index.php?osCsid=ca12f60470cdf83b67fe8e0376e19de5&manufacturers_id=16&sort=4a&filter_id=105
thats where i got mine from, it retailed at $900 and i got it for $550, cheapest AUTHORIZED place i could find
Eclipse are extremely good head units and incorporate more black into them but i think theyre more than you want to spend
kenwood makes a great head unit as well
im kind of weary of alpine--ive heard of too many people having problems with their head units
as far as amps go, i agree with John all the way
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/Manufacturer.aspx?ManufacturerID=613
onlinecarstereo.com is not authorized, but they do offer a one year warranty through themselves...ive ordered through them before and would gladly do it again, they have a very easy to navigate webpage, professional customer service, along with quick shipping and free shipping for orders over $100 i believe
for front speakers, you can go with coaxial speakers or components, components offering an adjustable crossover for the momos and a seperate tweeter
if you can fit the mm6, id go with them if you want to go with components
the problem is theyre pretty big speakers...theyre a little larger than your typical 6.5 and are semi-deep compared to other comparable speakers
the good thing is, due the the speakers cone shape, if you make a 3/4" wood spacer, then chances are theyll fit in your doors with ease
the reason i say get them is because of how cheap they are
if you look on sounddomain, and heres a link:
http://www.sounddomain.com/shoplist~b~Polk+Audio~t~Component+Speaker+Systems
they are actually cheaper than the 6.5" DB line and only $10 more than the DB 5.25s
theyre only $20 more than the momo coaxials as well
CDT also makes good speakers
these components for $150 are really good
http://www.thezeb.com/p-CDT-Audio-CL-61T-6½-inch-Component-System-109415.htm
comparable to the momos but will fit easier and at the expense of bass response
to power either of these components, id recommend this amp
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13122
as far as subs go, i know you said youll get it later which is perfectly fine, but the JBL GT120 is what id get
http://www.cardomain.com/item/JBLGT120
this sub will probably sound just as good as the Image dynamics sub im going to list and get a good deal louder off the same power while doing so
second is this sub, the ID 12v3d2-it might have slightly better SQ but the difference wont be much if any http://www.cardomain.com/item/IDSID12V3D2
the good thing is that you can get the exact same amp for it and bridge it, this allows for a clean, symmetrical install
one thing that i would do is go ahead and buy 2 sets of RCAs now and install them both right now, that way you wont have to do it again later
id get a 4awg amp kit from www.knukonceptz.com
ive actually heard their RCAs are extremely good
personally, i wouldnt use them, but i have to the absolute best, which i again agree with John-street wires
theyre not the best--but theyre at the point where if you spent any more, the difference wouldnt be audible
i have the SW 5.0s which arent made anymore, and if you run across them in a 16+ft length, tell me so i can buy em...lol
i will be getting a set of their 6.0s when i get a new truck to replace my Fosgates
sound deadening--this is optional but will improve SQ and bass response and help keep out road noise
there is a very cheap version of sound deadening at home depot called peel n seal
id just put it on my doors on the metal part and be done with it
thats totally optional but its not expensive and you will hear a difference
i think that pretty much covers everything
-Cody

Jstas

Ah, the install kits are easy. They have a terminal end which plugs into the wiring harness of your car and has two pig tail ends with female blade connectors crimped on. They aren't anything special but they do make life easier if you are using stock locations and stock wiring.

Doors only is a way to go but you honestly need to think about what it will be used for. Everyone poo-poo's back seat speakers but honestly, if you have kids that listen to Barney or Raffi, you'll like those rear speakers and fader control very much! If it's just a commuter car then fronts will work out fine. Given the cost factor though, I would go with these for the front:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-6G8kbDPCRYQ/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=400&I=107DB525


They are the DB's and the will work out just fine. You'll want to put some power behind them. Honestly though, if you do go with doors only, I'd put a subwoofer in 'cause the 5.25 inch speakers may not have enough gusto in the bottom end. If you go for a component set though, you will run into possible issues with mounting tweeters and such plus you can easily tack on an extra 100-150 dolalrs for the speakers alone. You'll also want more power in your amp so that's a high price too. I'd stick with the DB's for the sole reason of keeping budget in mind.

For an amplifier, I'd get this 2 channel instead of the other 4 channel.

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13985


That is another Hifonics amp from thier Warrior series and it's quite small but big in power. These amps are re-releases from when Hifonics really started getting big in the early 90's. These amps are what Hifonics built thier name on. I had this Hifonics Warrior Hawk and I loved it! If a 'friend' hadn't stolen it from me, I'd still be using it.

So far, amp and speakers are at $180.

Now, if you want to add a sub to help with the bottom end, I'd go with this one from Polk Audio also:

http://www.cardomain.com/item/POLMM2084DVC


I have used these myself in a friend's Jeep and they are extremely nice subwoofers. Very stout, very clean sound and at ~$90 a pop, cheap as hell too! To power it, I'd used this little guy:

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13988


It's 2 ohm stable so it will work great with that dual 4 ohm voice coil sub with the coils wired in series. It's about $170.

So that's $190 + $90 + $170 = $450 for all the speakers and amps. Add another $60 or so for a wiring kit and maybe $50 bucks for a basic sealed, 8 inch sub enclosure and it's sitting at $560 and you wouldn't even need a head unit yet 'cause that would work fine.

You don't have to go that way though. That is just an example of how cheaply you can do stuff. If you want, forgoe teh sub and sub amp right now, bump up tothe 6.5 inch speakers and grab a head unit with that stereo amplifier. It'll come out to about the same price but the 6.5's are more likely to perform well without a sub where as the 5.25's will be audibly lacking in thier bottom end.


A co-axial vs. a component. Component offer better sound. The biggest pluses are sound quality and flexibility. The biggest draw backs are cost, number of speakers PLUS an external crossover and they usually require more power to sound thier best. A coaxial has pluses and minuses too. A coax will usually have no external crossover so mount is easier. Also, the speaker is in one small package. However, it is taller and deeper than a similarly sized component woofer so mounting can still be an issue. The beauty of a coax is that the tweeter is mounted in the perfect spot for a tweeter to be, directly in the center of the woofer cone. Because of that though, the woofer doesn't have the dustcap which adds strength and rigidity and they usually share the same leads. This causes SQ issues when compared to a component. So you see, draw backs and pluses. Which ones are you willing to live with.

Polk Audio has a wonderful compromise though! The MMC series 5.25 and 6.5 inch speakers have seperate binding posts and external crossovers for the tweeters and woofers. This not only means component line performance but bi-ampable coaxs. So you get component like performace in a compact coax package. They are defintly worth the extra cash. Either way, given your budget constraints, I'd stick with coaxials.

As far as haed units go, again, check out what you like. All the same stuff from home audio applies. The only difference is that these use a DC power source instead of an AC power source and they fit into a spot about 1/5th the size of your average pre-amplifier.

If you want to stick with a 4 channel, yes, you can bringe channels but you are going to be extremely over-powered for any kind of speaker you want to throw in there that fits your budget. You could get the 4 channel and bridge the rear channels to run a sub but you'd need another cross over in the mix most likely and that's added costs in wiring, gear and space. Plus, sub performance or speaker performance may suffer due to the high load put on the other set of channels. Overall, not the greatest solution IMO.


As said before, budget and practicality are obviously your driving factors. However, I wouldn't be so willing to sacrifice quality for budget. It will pay off for you if you put something decent in rather than skimp to get under a certain dollar figure. Your budget is already fairly small and I wouldn't want to start sacrificing sound and build quality to save a dollar. Also, the benefit to good gear is that when you do '86' the Cibbic, you will have gear that will, in most cases, fit the next car you get. If not, good used gear will bring in some cash to help you recover some of the original cost and offset the new cost. After all, how many Jensen 6x9's have you seen hanging on a wall in a garage vs. how many Alpine or Rockford Fosgates have you seen? The reason the Jensens are hanging and not the Alpine is because people still want the Alipines. They can pick up new Jensens for 30 bucks at Pep Boys.

HBombToo

@ 240k miles I would just by the wife a new Lexas!!!

HBomb

spwuinmk67

I say go with the 5.25" Db components or sounddomain, and the first 4-channel Jstas mentioned, and bi-amp them. IF you decide to get a HU as well, definatly go with pioneer.

Tour2ma

Thanks again to all... Sorry for leaving you hanging so long.

Did not make purchase for Christmas, but as I said in an above post, February is my Lady's Birthday, so just pulled the trigger.

Went with Polk db525's and ended up adding a 2nd pair of db525's since there was a "2nd pair sale" on for them at 1/2 price. May keep as spares... may resell... may throw in my Accord... lotsa options...

For a head unit chose the Kenwood KDC-1028. Went with it on specs and price and looks.

Ended up at Crutchfield, although I did price compare at froogle.com. Could have saved a couple bucks piecing them around, but Crutchfield's free shipping and no tax to Texas made them more than competitive.

Not the end all, be all system, but I am sure she'll be pleased...

MacLeod

That sounds good. The DB are great speakers especially considering they are "entry level" models.

She will be quite happy.

I dont blame ya for going with Crutchfield. They are about as trustworthy as they come. The second best choice would be SoundDomain. They are a little cheaper than CF and are the only place other than CF that Ill order from.

Tour2ma

One more belated reply... I did the install late February.

The old speakers surrounds were gone. Thought it odd that foam surrounds would be used in a car speaker. Crutchfield's install instructions said nothing about it, but I figured out that I had to saws-all the center out of the stock frame baskets to accomodate the db's. Once done, they went in easy as pie.

Head unit install instructions were pretty clear, but did have me looking for a non-existant, 2nd screw securing the stock head unit. Soldered up the adaptor harness Crutch sent to the Kenwood's harness and had a CD spinning in no time... Sounded pretty damn good, too...

Tuner had to wait until I found a replacement termination for the coax antenna lead.. original had developed a ground, but all is well now. Tuner performance is a bigger drop off from the CD quality than I'd expected, but not terrible...

Overall, I'm happy and even more important the wife is happy...

So thanks to all again for the guidance...

Later,
Tour

exalted512

sounds good.
it seems like almost all mid range speakers have butyl rubber surrounds but subs only like 3/4 of them are rubber. i used to hate foam b/c in my climate they wouldnt hold up well but i guess technology has changed so its not bad at all anymore. and my subs have foam surrounds...but then again, theyre not in the doors where they have a chance of getting wet so that probably has a lot to do with it
-Cody

Jstas

Foam surrounds are used on subs because in most cases, foam surrounds are lighter and more flexible than rubber surrounds. Because of that, the sensitivity of the sub increases. Usually the power handling will drop though. However, a 1 dB increase in sensivity can ofen ofset a 100 watts drop in power handling by at least 50% of that power drop.

The biggest flaw with foam surrounds is thier lack of durability. Otherwise, they can be made as strong as a rubber surround but more responsive. Due to thier lighter weight, there is less mass that the motor structure has to sling around. The less mas, the lower the forces are that need to be overcome when teh signal switches the polarity going across the voicecoil. That means that the speaker will require less power to get the cone to change directions quickly enough. That direction changing ability in proportion to power handling is measured as sensitivity.

That's a real simplified view of it but it gets the basic point across.

Tour2ma

All is still well with the wife's little car rig, but for months now I've been trying to figure out who sent me a subscription to "Car and Driver".

It turns out it was Crutchfield... Had no clue that was part of the deal from them.

audiobliss

Man, that's neat. A free "Car and Driver" subscription...cool!

Sounds like you have her rocking out to a good system, too. Nice!

Tour2ma

Thanks... compared to her surroundless original speakers, she's pretty happy.

audiobliss

You already have a system in your Accord? Or are you (in futility) attempting to resist temptations to put one in there?

Tour2ma

Yes...

The EX came with a very nice sounding component speaker system standard. Were the woofers ever to go out, I would not hestitiate to replace them with polk, but so far no need to do so.

audiobliss

Hmm....you say it currently has an OEM system...and yet you say there's no need to replace it....your logic doth me confuse...:p

neomagus00

sufficient for the application...

MacLeod

Glad to hear the missus is still digging the new system Bruce.

Thats also a cool deal getting a subscription to Car and Driver. That is probably my favorite automotive magazine.

MacLeod

Now what is even wilder is, can you believe this thread is 14 months old?!?!

I remember when you first posted it and it seems like only a month or two ago. Man, this last year or two have just been a blur.

Tour2ma

Yup... the old wagon keeps roling downhill faster and faster and...