Outlaw combo 950/770 w/RTi12

larryp123

The forum keeps suggesting the more power the better to drive the RTi12's currently using a Denon 3805 (Note: Will move the 3805 to drive in wall living room system).

Setup:

RTi12 front/main
RC85i surround
CSi5 center
PSW505 sub
media room 20(l)x15(w)

6.1 home theatre w/above speakers....

90% movies and music dvd's
10% 2-channel audio

Forum's thoughts on Outlaw 950/770 or comparable set up in the same price range - around $2600?

Will moving from 120wpc to 200 wpc make a significant difference at moderate volumes?

Thanks,

steveinaz

Your significant increase will be in headroom, or peak watts. I think an upgrade from 120w to 200w is probably worthy of the expense.

Frank Z

You could do it a step at a time and get the amp now and the 950 later. If the 770 doesn't suit your needs you've got 30 days to return it.

HBombToo

Originally posted by Frank Z
You could do it a step at a time and get the amp now and the 950 later. If the 770 doesn't suit your needs you've got 30 days to return it.

True and agreed but the 770 has all one could hope for....:D

HBomb

Tour2ma

Originally posted by larryp123
RTi12 front/main
RC85i surround
CSi5 center
PSW505 sub
media room 20(l)x15(w)

6.1 home theatre w/above speakers....

I'm missing something here... What's your rear center? A 3rd RC85i or a 2nd CSi5? And what is an RC85i?

Agree with the above, no reason to ditch your Denon as it makes a fine PrePro...

Would point out that a more modest 2 ch amp could be employed to bi-amp your 12's along side the Denon. Or a 3 ch to bi-amp your front three.

Doc Spec runs three Outlaw mono-blocks for his front stage off a 3805. The surrounds, set to small, just don't get busy enough to demand as much power.

As for noticing a difference at modest listening levels? Good question that depends on our relative definitions of "modest".
If in the 70 dB-ish range... no, I doubt it.
If in the 80-ish... possibly.
In the 90's... Oh Yeah...

Biggest difference of all will be noticed during the 10% time... Mains to large, sub off... double the power to the 12's with current to spare... Oh yes, the difference will be evident.

Welcome to the Forum, Larry...

larryp123

The RC85i are Polk in-wall speakers. My media room was pre-wired for 6.1 surround. I am also using the same speaker for the rear center.

The reason I am looking to upgrade is that my living room was also pre-wired for 5.1 surround sound and I'm going to have Polk 4 ea. RC80i in ceiling speakers installed. I figured if I have to buy a new receiver/amp. for that system, I may as well move the Denon to the living room and upgrade in the media room.

As I was doing my online research, it appeared you get a lot of bang (power) for the buck with Outlaw products. I am not familiar with Outlaw and was wondering if anyone had any experience with Outlaw driving Polk speakers.

I'm up for suggestions on other components as well... I just want to stay under $3000.00 for the pre-amp/amp or reciever.

Frank Z

I've been using an Outlaw 7100 for over a year to drive my Lsi's. Great product and a great price. There are a few Polkies using Outlaw gear. Try using the search feature, you'll find a lot of threads on this subject.

Tour2ma

Not arguing against new Outlaw gear, but with an "under $3000" budget, there are numerous used options, if you are open to used. Field slims some for a 6.1 rig, but there are options...

larryp123

I am definitely open to "B-stock" or factory refurbished. Would like some type of warranty even if it’s 90 days to a year.

Any suggestions on product would be appreciated....

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Would point out that a more modest 2 ch amp could be employed to bi-amp your 12's along side the Denon. Or a 3 ch to bi-amp your front three.

Doc Spec runs three Outlaw mono-blocks for his front stage off a 3805. The surrounds, set to small, just don't get busy enough to demand as much power.

Tour2ma,

I thinking about doing the same thing with a 770 amp but with an Onkyo for the PrePro. With 7 channels with the 770 amp why not just bi-amp the fronts from this amp? This leaves 3 channels for center and rear surrounds. Right what are you thinking or what I'm I missing?

Dennis Gardner

Welcome Larry!

I agree with the others that the mains and center need the most headroom. I would also like to throw in a thought in that the Denon 3805 may be a better preamp than the 950. You have alot more control over processing, crossovers, upconversion of video, etc. The weakest part of the 3805 package is the 7 channels of amplification. They aren't weak in and of themselves, they just aren't as top shelf as the rest of the electronics. You do actually have plenty of power for the inwalls as you are today.

I would keep the Denon, purchase enough monoblocks to get the front soundstage way ahead of its current state and then have $$$ to play with later, when HD DVD is available or a projector is needed.

Then again, if a rack of matching units is important, go Outlaw throughout.

Cheers,

Dennis

Tour2ma

Dennis,
Since you more or less agree with me, allow me to tell you how wise you truly are...

Steve,
No reason not to do as you suggest. Upon return of Sunfire #2 (in route per Mr. Dion), four of my ten Sunfire channels will go to my SRS mains...

Only small issue I have with dropping outboard amps on an AVR (besides the dents... ) is leaving any power on the shelf, as in unused AVR channels.
A watt is a terrible thing to waste...
If your Onk's channels are reassignable, then you have many options to avoid this embarassing situation...

One other consideration... keeping the same amp on the front trio, or at least on the halves of the front trio*, helps insure seamless blending. There are differences in amps' "sound", even different amps from the same Mfg. Granted amp differences will not be as great as different tweeters, but there are differences.

I am actually a little surprised that as much bi-amping that has been done with amps from differnet Mfg's that no one has commented on/ been displeased by this... May be as simple an explanation that it's not as critical in HT aplications as in 2 ch...

=============================
Oh boy.... my 1st footnote...
* - in "halves of front trio" I mean one Mfg amp on the tweetes and another on the MW's, e.g., assigning your Onk to the tweets and the Outlaw to the MW's...

RVJII

So you wouldn't recommend using the Onkyo for the mids/tweets and the Outlaw mono blocks for the woofers?

Tour2ma

No, I'd say that has a very good shot at being very satisfying...

What I would be less enthusiastic about doing is bi-amping only the mains as you described and leave the center solely on the Onkyo... But again several have done this using various combo's of AVR's and 2 ch amps, and liked the results...

Dennis Gardner

Tour,

Timbre matching of different types of speakers (MTM centers, bookshelves or towers for mains and bi\dipoles for surrounds)make the amplification portion a secondary concern.

I agree that the mixing of amps has always been an issue in 2 channel. The sheer number of channels HT now has and the $$$ needed to biamp with quality components have many shortcutting normal practices.

I do think that the nature of HT is more forgiving, even though I really like accuracy in all reproduction of sound. Rarely are the same sounds coming from all channels at the same time.

I see biamping in an HT at a midlevel investment as a waste of $$$. Room treatments, better source, processing, and upgraded speakers come to mind as a better value to me. But then again, wouldn't 2 Outlaw 770s biamped into 14 channels be killer??!!

Cheers,

DG

Tour2ma

LOL... More like "overkiller", I'd say... but :cool: ...

Dennis,
Agree that speakers dominate the equation, but given that many have matched at least their front stage I still find the absence of amp matching issues surprising. HT is demanding enough, again at least in the front stage, to show differences.

I can certainly chalk it up to the lack of a basis of comparison. Before the 3.1tl's arrived I thought my CS400 blended nicely with my SRS's, but the tl's blended better during their stint. Now I'm back on the SRS's and the blend seems fine again... Fleeting audio memory is the only reason I can give...

RVJII

Tour2ma...

I have matched my front soundstage. (RTi12's and CSi5) So if I were to go with 3 mono blocks you think that it would work ok? Just to be clear, the result would be 110wpc (Onkyo) to the mids/tweets to the L/C/R and 200 wpc (Outlaw) to the woofers on all three.

Thanks for you help...

Tour2ma

Sounds like a plan to me...

disneyjoe7

Bruce,


>>If your Onk's channels are reassignable, then you have many options to avoid this embarassing situation...<<

Huh?


>>One other consideration... keeping the same amp on the front trio, or at least on the halves of the front trio*, helps insure seamless blending.<<

Will that is what I do now my Onk those the front trio speakers on the upper halves R & L speakers. A HK amp is used the the lower halves for the R & L speakers. A seven channel amp will just keep the front trio has the same while balancing the whole HT speakers, and giving me more watts for the front speakers in 2 channel music. Using those power hungy RT150i for R & L speakers.


>>May be as simple an explanation that it's not as critical in HT aplications as in 2 ch...<<

Mike Reeter

RVJII,I also have a pair of 12's and the CSi5 up front...I'm also looking at hooking up some "real" power for those 12's...

I'm leaning toward a Rotel RB-1080 (2x200) to power the lows and bi-amp with our Denon for the highs,maybe later on picking up a Rotel RB-1075 (5x120) to bi-amp the upper end of the 12's plus the CSi5 and side surrounds...

I like to listen to 2-channel music also,plus have the power for HT,I would be very interested in what you decide to run with,please let us know what you come up with and how the "sound" turns out for you.

Thanks,Mike

Tour2ma

The "huh" statement was just around the waste of amplification that results when you turn AVR's into Pre-Pros. It's a personal affliction...

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by Tour2ma
The "huh" statement was just around the waste of amplification that results when you turn AVR's into Pre-Pros. It's a personal affliction...

So it won't harm my AVR? Is just a waste of it right?

Tour2ma

Hurt its feelings...maybe. Otherwise... no.

Shell

I am definitely open to "B-stock" or factory refurbished. Would like some type of warranty even if it’s 90 days to a year.

Larry I got an Outlaw 7100 B-stock that I love. They are currently running B-stock items with free delivery. You get the full 5-year warranty I believe.

malikarshad

I'm running an b-stock Outlaw 770 with Denon 3803 as a pre/pro for my HT and absolutely luv it. Outlaw products are great for the price/performance ratio.

Sami

Originally posted by Tour2ma
The "huh" statement was just around the waste of amplification that results when you turn AVR's into Pre-Pros. It's a personal affliction...

When you only use external amps for the mains (or front three) and use the AVR for surround, you're not wasting much. Isn't the major concern on AVR's their powersupply? If those 2-3 channels are going unused it frees up the PS for the surrounds, giving them more current that they would have available if the front would be amplified by internal amps.

Right?

Tour2ma

Interesting question....

Certainly given the higher 2 ch power ratings you almost always see in AVR spec's, you'd suspect the power supply/ transformer is the limiting component in their design.

Haven't seen spec's showing that the surround channels increase their output if the center and/ or mains are idled, but assuming the same amp circuits are in play (and no reason I can think of that they would not be the same), it makes sense that their output would rise as well...

Thanks, I feel far less afflicted now...

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Interesting question....

Certainly given the higher 2 ch power ratings you almost always see in AVR spec's, you'd suspect the power supply/ transformer is the limiting component in their design.

Interesting question indeed. If I was to add a 7 channel amp 200W x 7 so my 5.1 HT setup will drive my RTi150's bi-amp'd all other speakers are feed the same amp so all voices should be the same. If I then Bi-amp my rears with the AVR outputs feeding the upper or lower, the AVR being 110w (maybe) the AMP being 200w then wouldn't the voices be off if feeding the upper or the bass off because it feeds the bottom. Speakers in question are the RT800i for rear surrounds.

I thinking YES it best the WASTE an amp

Sami

You would need to measure the output on those preouts and use the amps controls to set correct gain.

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#4.1%20-%20Measuring%20Amplifier

Tour2ma

Yep calibration at least sets an equal baseline.

SS amps have different gain ratios, slew rates, etc. A single point calibration does not address these differences, other than at that single point. So in a dynamic situation the differences might be heard, if the amp characteristics are different enough.

Given the choice between the same amp all the way around, and mixing and matching, I'm sure most , if not all, would choose the same. But sometimes $$$ is a factor and mixing amps, at least as a stage in developing a system, is necessary. Many here are in that very stage and enjoy their systems just fine. Some so much, that they stay there a long time...

Steve,
I think power differences you cite would be lower on the list. Especially if a sub is in the mix and the "5" are set to small, I would think running out of power to surrounds being bi-amped with 100 wpc times 2, is not very likely. I do see issues with the center channel to be more likely.

The other question would be: Don't your 150's and 800's already have a different voice?

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by Tour2ma


Steve,
I think power differences you cite would be lower on the list. Especially if a sub is in the mix and the "5" are set to small, I would think running out of power to surrounds being bi-amped with 100 wpc times 2, is not very likely. I do see issues with the center channel to be more likely.

The other question would be: Don't your 150's and 800's already have a different voice?

Bruce,

Yes my Rt800i vs my RTi150's have different sound / voices, but I don't really hear that difference due to them being used as surrounds. My CS400i vs the RTi150's sound different, but again not that large of a change for me to pick up during a movie.

My biggest fear is this I wish to up the Wattage to my RTi150's by bi-amping them with a 7x200w amp. So the front RTi150's are powered by 2x200w each vs. the 110w & 100w I use now. My current setup uses the Onk powering the front uppers the CS400i center and the Rt800i rears. I have tried using the Onk feeding the bottom woofers and the HK2000 feeding the mid / tweet that sounded to different to the CS400i center. So that is the fear I have if the front mid and tweet amp is different then at least the front mid / tweet's need the same amp, level or not I think the other amp specs have a play in it like you said.


BTW I use this setup as a 2 channel and HT by the audio mode direct / pure audio modes vs PLII movie mode in HT. As I don't use the nice sub for music.