DVD Audio?

Toxis

Is it just me or does everyone here only listen to SACD? I personally think SACD is a slightly cleaner format than DVDa but does this mean none of you actually own/listen to DVDa? I personally own a couple DVDa's that are not available on SACD and I absolutely love them. One being Linkin Park's Reanimation and the other is Blue Man Group's Audio. Phenominal surround, detail and bass response. I understand they're not everyone's listening preferences (Hell, I barely even like LP) but does no one appreciate the quality of DVDa vs. reg. CD's?

Danny Tse

Before my 2 Sony SACD players, I actually owned a Panasonic RA-60 DVD-Audio/Video player. This was way before the appearance of the inexpensive universal players from Pioneer, Toshiba, etc. For me, it came down to the availability of titles....I have only puchased one DVD-A (Elvis' 30 #1 Hits). SACD offered many more titles that was more in tune with my musical taste. I am quite sure DVD-A sounds wonderful, and I am still tempted by that Panasonic F87 DVD-A changer, but I am a SACD fan. For now. I wonder if DualDisc will change this?

danger boy

I'm a DVD-a fan. have been for about three years now. it's good stuff.. most of it anyways.. some times you'll run into a mix that sounds weird. but most are ok.

the lack of decent titles is what i think is keeping a lot of people away from it.

TechChallenged

Originally posted by Toxis
I personally think SACD is a slightly cleaner format than DVDa but does this mean none of you actually own/listen to DVDa? I personally own a couple DVDa's that are not available on SACD and I absolutely love them. One being Linkin Park's Reanimation and the other is Blue Man Group's Audio. Phenominal surround, detail and bass response. I understand they're not everyone's listening preferences (Hell, I barely even like LP) but does no one appreciate the quality of DVDa vs. reg. CD's?

I agree. It seems to me that not all DVD-A's are created equal. Reanimation on DVD is like a whole new album. However, STP on DVD-A sucks. Let me emphasizes, SUCKS! I understand that initial recording quality is a big part of the conversation quality (garbage in, garbage out.) but not in this case. Given the choice I prefer the cleaner sounding SACD.

Emlyn

Originally posted by danger boy
I'm a DVD-a fan. have been for about three years now. it's good stuff.. most of it anyways.. some times you'll run into a mix that sounds weird. but most are ok.

the lack of decent titles is what i think is keeping a lot of people away from it.

Agreed. I have about 30 titles on DVD-A. I only listen to the high resolution 2-channel tracks though in a dedicated two channel system. Beck's "Sea Change" is available on CD, SACD, and DVD-A. I'd suggest listening to those for oneself on similar level equipment to see if there are notable differences in the quality of the formats.

The key problem limiting use of DVD-A is access to good titles.

PETERNG

Folks...

We used to debate and discuss about SACD and DVD-A in here for quite sometimes... I think your guys need to seriously consider to take advice from senior Polk's members in here like George, Russ and Troy... regarless how good DVD-A and SACD are...traditional stereo with an amp two decent speakers is the best when litsenning to music... DD and DTS and multi-channels are only great for movie...stuffs...

I have not buy any DVD-A and SACD for the last 2 years... I didn't miss anything...

I'm glad to see Troy and Russ ...stilll here...where the heck is George?....

Peterng::)

danger boy

Originally posted by PETERNG
Folks...

We used to debate and discuss about SACD and DVD-A in here for quite sometimes... I think your guys need to seriously consider to take advice from senior Polk's members in here like George, Russ and Troy... regarless how good DVD-A and SACD are...traditional stereo with an amp two decent speakers is the best when litsenning to music... DD and DTS and multi-channels are only great for movie...stuffs...

I have not buy any DVD-A and SACD for the last 2 years... I didn't miss anything...

I'm glad to see Troy and Russ ...stilll here...where the heck is George?....

Peterng::)

Hogwash!

nothing beats hi rez audio. period. there is a time and place for multichannel audio.. not to take anything away from hi fi stereo or anything. i enjoy both. 2 channel and multichannel.


:cool:

reeltrouble1

High resolution discs are outstanding, I enjoy them very much in 2ch, as an added bounus the hybrid type sound geat on standard players.

The misunderstanding of the formats is one of the things holding them back from total acceptance. At the fest a couple of us matched up a High Res disc on the outstanding Jolida CDP compared to the Phillips High Res player. Believe the disc was the Kink's, Low Budget. A bit deeper bass extension and smoother highs on the High Res player was my impression along with some other club members. The higher sampling rates and bit word length are just a bit more dynamic.

I have Hotel Ca., Rumours, and A Night at the Opera, on DVD-A I enjoy them, albiet its 2ch nervana for me. I try to only buy High Res discs when adding anything new to the collection. Has nothing to do with surround for me.
:cool:

F1nut

A little info on SACD and DVD-A/DualDisc,

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/n...number=12377501

therockman

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
High resolution discs are outstanding, I enjoy them very much in 2ch, as an added bounus the hybrid type sound geat on standard players.

The misunderstanding of the formats is one of the things holding them back from total acceptance. At the fest a couple of us matched up a High Res disc on the outstanding Jolida CDP compared to the Phillips High Res player. Believe the disc was the Kink's, Low Budget. A bit deeper bass extension and smoother highs on the High Res player was my impression along with some other club members. The higher sampling rates and bit word length are just a bit more dynamic.

I have Hotel Ca., Rumours, and A Night at the Opera, on DVD-A I enjoy them, albiet its 2ch nervana for me. I try to only buy High Res discs when adding anything new to the collection. Has nothing to do with surround for me.
:cool:

Actually LOW BUDGET is on SACD, so the "bit word length" is shorter than on a CD. The "bit word length" on an SACD is 1 bit.

Rocky

F1nut

I'll speak for RT1, he knows the disc was a SACD, it was his and I'm fairly certain he didn't mean a higher bit word length, just that the bit word length of SACD results in better resolution. Wording can get easily confused when typing.

therockman

Thanks for the clarification on that "bit word length" issue. I am sorry that I even chimed in like that, but there are so many newbies to high-rez that I really wanted the figures to be accurate so that there wouldn't be any confusion by anyone.

Rocky

reeltrouble1

No problem Rocky, as you are correct and F1 has explained the bit issue.

Seems it would help if the all the labels would release the high rez discs as backward compatible hybrid whether DVD/A or SACD. Some of them are some not, this only adds to the confusion.

I just picked up three discs through the Sony special mentioned in the Clubhouse by Shack, one of them the AeroSmith dual disc for 43.00 delivered to the house. I could not buy them for that at my local music stores.

I support the high rez formats, the player manufacture's have done a good job in providing low cost universal equipment. This can make the format "war" a moot point.

shack

Actually LOW BUDGET is on SACD

I'll speak for RT1, he knows the disc was a SACD

Of course the dead giveaway was:

At the fest a couple of us matched up a High Res disc on the outstanding Jolida CDP compared to the Phillips High Res player

since Philips like Sony has yet to make a DVD-A capable player. Rumors are that Philips may have a universal player by the end of the year. (interesting since Sony and Philips both hold some key patents for DVD-A technology)

reeltrouble1

Of course in comparing the formats, one of the benefits of DVD-A is also one of its weaknesses, namely the use of video, mostly still shots although the Queen disc I mentioned puts the lyrics up on screen which my non-hobbyist friends really seem to like.

During "critical listening" though I want to be fully involved with the music, nothing else, so the video gets turned off as I find it distracting, however, getting to hear the artists talk about the tracks and getting some photo's of the band members is a nice bonus not offered with sacd. Stevie Nicks can still get my old motor running!!!;)

fireshoes

I haven't seen any in stores yet, but supposedly they have started released flip discs/dual discs that are dvd-a on one side and cd on the other.

therockman

Originally posted by fireshoes
I haven't seen any in stores yet, but supposedly they have started released flip discs/dual discs that are dvd-a on one side and cd on the other.

This is not really true. Most dual discs are are DVD-V on one side and CD on the other.

Rocky

danger boy

fireshoes is right.

they are DVD-audio on one side.. CD on the flip side. I have one of BareNaked Ladies

Toxis

So what all good dvda's are out there? I was about ready to get STP- Core but heard someone say it's junk. What do you recommend?

therockman

The three that I looked at were all combination DVD-V and CD. These titles include The Donnas and Simple Plan, although they include a DTS surround sound track.

Rocky

therockman

Originally posted by therockman
This is not really true. Most dual discs are are DVD-V on one side and CD on the other.

Rocky

Although I do appoligize for offending anyone about this whole dual-disc controversy, I will stick by my original statement that MOST dual discs are DVD-V/CD combinations, but of course not all. There will be some that are DVD-A/CD combinations, but right now it looks as if these will be in the minority. It is just a matter of economics. There are more people with DVD-V players than there are people with DVD-A players. And of course the RIAA rules for high rez audio content have not changed, so that anybody with a DVD-A player stills needs 3 pairs of RCA style analog jacks to connect to their receiver. Thus this type of set up would definately be in the minority. But I do agree with Fireshoes that some DVD-A/CD combos will be hitting the market, and these will definately open up the publics awareness to high rez audio. But it is up to the producer and artist weather they want they their dual-disc to sport the DVD-A/CD combo or the DVD-V/CD combo, and I am afraid that most producers will chose the latter simply because of the target audience.

Rocky Bennett

danger boy

Originally posted by Toxis
So what all good dvda's are out there? I was about ready to get STP- Core but heard someone say it's junk. What do you recommend?

Toxis,

a few that i like are...

R.E.M - Automatic for the People
Barenaked Ladies - Maroon
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours
Queen - A Night At the Opera
Eagles - Hotel California
Foreigner - 4
Fleetwood Mac - Say You Will
Sheryl Crow - The Globe Sessions
Crowded House - Crowded House
The Fixx - 1011 Woodland

i'd recommend any of the above titles..

Danny Tse

Originally posted by therockman
Although I do appoligize for offending anyone about this whole dual-disc controversy, I will stick by my original statement that MOST dual discs are DVD-V/CD combinations, but of course not all. There will be some that are DVD-A/CD combinations, but right now it looks as if these will be in the minority. It is just a matter of economics. There are more people with DVD-V players than there are people with DVD-A players. And of course the RIAA rules for high rez audio content have not changed, so that anybody with a DVD-A player stills needs 3 pairs of RCA style analog jacks to connect to their receiver. Thus this type of set up would definately be in the minority. But I do agree with Fireshoes that some DVD-A/CD combos will be hitting the market, and these will definately open up the publics awareness to high rez audio. But it is up to the producer and artist weather they want they their dual-disc to sport the DVD-A/CD combo or the DVD-V/CD combo, and I am afraid that most producers will chose the latter simply because of the target audience.

Rocky Bennett

Wow! If that's the case, hi-rez music would be taking a step backwards. All along, I was thinking DualDisc was the hybrid version of DVD-A. Now it seems that's not true.

therockman

Just to keep the dual-disc controversy going, it has been promised that the new Nine Inch Nails dual-disc will be a DVD-A/CD type. This is good news, but not confirmed.

Rocky

fireshoes

I found this interesting information at TWICE.com. It shows sales in units and dollars for the various audio formats.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA474692.html?display=Breaking+News

SACD and DVD-Audio both sold 300,000 units but SACD sales were over $6.7 million to DVD-Auido's $4.8 million. DVD-Audio sales were up 110 percent and SACD sales were down a whopping 54.2 percent. Vinyl LP's sold 700,000 units for $9.3 million, so more units than SACD and DVD-Audio combined.

F1nut

Since I didn't feel like signing up to that site I didn't read the article, but I have to say those figures are bunk. There are over 2500 SACD releases compared to maybe 800 DVD-A, so based on that the figures do not jive with the units available. I believe the root of the problem is that the average consumer doesn't know the difference between a DVD-A and DVD-V and thinks any DVD-V with a music concert on it is a DVD-A, it's not!

This article reflects my point:

"The #2 category that consumers say they purchase music on is DVD Audio at 2.7%. This bests all other formats including Singles, Cassettes, Digital Downloads, DVD Videos & Music Videos, Super Audio CDs and Vinyl LPs.

I'd say this result is a bit surprising, especially the finding that consumers say they buy more music on DVD Audio than on either DVD Video & Music Videos or Digital Downloads. It does make one wonder if the consumers in the phone survey might be confusing the DVD Audio format with music on a DVD Video disc.

As for the status of Super Audio CD, it is tied with the Vinyl LP at 0.5% which is interesting since SACDs and Vinyl LPs are also close together in the 2003 RIAA Unit Shipment survey.

The DVD Marketing Council Press Release
I should also note that the 2003 RIAA consumer phone survey is the source of the recent DVD Marketing Council Press Announcement that was recently posted here on High Fidelity Review (see link below). It states that "DVD-Audio sales doubled in 2003 and are more than five times that of SACD, according to an RIAA survey".

Well, the consumer phone survey shows DVD Audio in the lead. But the units shipment survey shows a 3X lead for Super Audio CD over DVD Audio when Unit Shipments and Dollar Value during 2003 are considered. It also indicates only a very slight increase in unit shipments from year to year for DVD Audio. So one does have to ask what is more important - unit shipments and dollar value or consumer impressions of formats purchased.

The press release also makes one wonder why the marketing group didn't also note that the RIAA consumer phone survey also says that DVD Audio is outselling DVD Video and Music Video discs and Digital Downloads. I'd say those are the even more impressive survey results here - if valid."

In addition to that SACD's are being released at about 60 per month compared to DVD-A's at about 5 to 10. So, which is outselling the other??? It isn't DVD-A I can tell you that.

fireshoes

Whoops, sorry about the login thing. Actually the article is using RIAA statistics as well.


Breaking News
Music Industry On The Mend?

By Joseph Palenchar -- TWICE, 10/25/2004 8:08:00 AM

Washington — Manufacturer-level unit sales of prerecorded music rose in the first half, ending a four-year string of consecutive first-half declines, the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) said.

The gains were driven largely by first-half CD sales that also rose for the first time in five years.

Overall first-half unit sales rose 4 percent in net units after returns to 349.9 million. At full suggested retail price, the dollar value of those sales would be up 3.6 percent to $5.05 billion. The figures combine sales to retailers, manufacturer-direct sales and special-market sales.

The growth, however, hasn’t made up for years of decline and, compared to 2001, CD shipments to retail remained down by 4.3 percent, and overall industry shipments to retail were down 9.8 percent in units, the RIAA complained.

The RIAA also found that DVD-Audio sales were up in units, SACD sales were down and the formats’ combined unit sales fell shy of vinyl LP sales. In many categories, the picture brightened in the first half of this year, the RIAA noted. The industry posted unit and dollar gains in sales of CDs, vinyl singles, DVD-Audio and music videos on tape and DVD. Sales were down in SACD, cassettes, vinyl LPs and CD singles.

In a first, the RIAA tracked the authorized music-download market and determined that 58 million tracks were downloaded or burned from licensed online music services in the first half. Here’s what’s up:

Full-length CD shipments: Units sales were up 5.3 percent to 329 million units, boosting suggested-retail value by 3.4 percent to $4.78 billion.

CD single: Units were off 55.8 percent to 2.6 million for a retail value of $11.6 million.

Audio cassette: Units sales fell 62.6 percent to 3 million for a retail value of $13.2 million.

Vinyl LP: Unit sales fell 9.3 percent to 700,000 for a retail value of $9.3 million.

Vinyl single: Units rose 1.8 percent to 1.9 million for a retail value of $10.9 million.

VHS music video: Units were up 15.1 percent to 800,000 for a retail value of $10.8 million.

DVD music video: Units rose 102 percent to 11.2 million for a retail value of $206.3 million.

DVD-Audio: Units were up 110 percent to 300,000 for a retail value of $4.8 million.

SACD: Units plummeted 54.2 percent to 300,000 for a retail value of $6.7 million.

therockman

To keep the DualDisc controversy alive, an article in the new Stereophile magazine (November 2004) pretty much indicates that most DualDiscs will be utilzed as DVD-V/CD combos. The article by Jon Iverson on page 15 lists choices of extra content for the DVD side, and it all pretty much adds up to a DVD-V format;
dolby digital
DTS 5.1
Music videos
24 bit 96 khz high resolution stereo (DVD-V standard)

I really don't think the market will see many DVD-A/CD DualDiscs, but hopefully we may see a couple of audiophile titles come out on some obscure record labels, but don't hope for any DVD-A/CD Dual Discs from the majors.

Rocky Bennett

Toxis

I have the Blue Man Group Audio disk and it's DVDa on one side, DVD-v on the other. Just thought I'd throw a kink out there. hahaha

ANYONE ELSE HAVE GOOD RECOMMENDATIONS? I saw Outkast's Stankonia was on DVDa. That kinda made me laugh and want to buy it at the same time...

Danny Tse

The DualDisc from The Donnas run into trouble....

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=41563

Go to page 2 of the thread.

therockman

Originally posted by Toxis
I have the Blue Man Group Audio disk and it's DVDa on one side, DVD-v on the other. Just thought I'd throw a kink out there. hahaha

ANYONE ELSE HAVE GOOD RECOMMENDATIONS? I saw Outkast's Stankonia was on DVDa. That kinda made me laugh and want to buy it at the same time...

That Blue Man Group disc, as cool as it sounds, is not a DualDisc by definition. All DualDiscs will contain a CD side.

Rocky Bennett