Using two CS 245i for surround in 7.1 setup.. OPINON??
TomTesch
Posts: 9
I'm setting up a THX Ultra system w/ the Denon 4800 and curious if two CS 245i speakers would work for two rear surrounds. I'm limited in space and already have one... thus the reason for the consideration. Anyone use these as surround speakers? I currently have, RT 1000i, CS 400, PSW 650, RT 55i side rears & if with your approval two CS 245i in the back rears.. Give me your take please!! I only have 12" of height clearance to deal with.... what to do, what to do ........... 
Post edited by TomTesch on
Comments
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35i's would make nice 6th and 7th center rear surrounds as well, but considering you already have the cs245i for the 6th channel i would go ahaed and get the same for the 7th, rather than buying two new speakers. should sound pretty sweet....
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I am using a cs245i for my center rear on my 6.1 HT and it sounds great. Two for a 7.1 would be awesome. I say go for it. BTW nice group of Polks ---- congrats!
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The 245 is a well balanced speaker.
Though not defined as a "surround" speaker it will put out good direct sound, so placing it where you will reap the greatest benefit will be the task.
But if it satisfys space constraints, and you're already half way there, use 'em.
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The rear speakers on a 6.1 and 7.1 setup are suppose to be direct. Diffused dipoles on the sides. Works very well.:)
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Go for it, CC is having a sale on them right now! Come to think about it, it is the right time to buy Polk because EVERYONE is having a sale.;)
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Originally posted by scottvamp
The rear speakers on a 6.1 and 7.1 setup are suppose to be direct. Diffused dipoles on the sides. Works very well.:)
I agree 100% with Scott's statement.
I had the same space constraint as you describe and had an extra CS100 to use in a similar manner:
My Back Center Surround
Larry -
I think the 245i would be perfect; I want to use one as the rear channel in a 6.1 system. Do you really need two?
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I talked about this before but here is my take. For me 6.1 added a whole new sound to my movies. My reciever is 6 channel so I chose the cs245i and it was a great chose. IMO ---it depends on the width of the room--mine is only 12' and the cs245i feels the back plenty with my fx500i's on the sides at dipole. If your room is much wider say 13' plus than 7.1 may be better.:cool:
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Scott, that is the set up I covet; are you running 800i's for fronts along with the 400i for front center? How high do you have your 500i's and 245i above ear level? Are your sides and rear the same height as one another, and should they be at the same height? Is it only the distance above ear level that you concern yourself with, or do you factor your front soundstage when configuring the height of your sides and rear(s)? Lots of questions, I know. I've got to pick up the 245i for my rear and I too will be home theater master.
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Originally posted by OrangeToupee
I think the 245i would be perfect; I want to use one as the rear channel in a 6.1 system. Do you really need two?
According to the experts the reason for having two mono surround back speakers is to avoid a psychoacoustic effect of human hearing where sound coming from a single rear speaker is sometimes perceived as coming from the front. The second rear speaker is supposed to anchor the sound in the back. I'm not positive, but this phenomenon might be most acute when both the listener and the single rear speaker are centered in the room. Briefly I had a configuration with a single surround back speaker and I never heard any sound reversals, but my listening position was not centered in the room.
I also agree with Scott's advice that the wider the room, the more a second back surround might be helpful to fill in the rear channel sound field.Originally posted by OrangeToupee
How high do you have your 500i's and 245i above ear level? Are your sides and rear the same height as one another, and should they be at the same height? Is it only the distance above ear level that you concern yourself with, or do you factor your front soundstage when configuring the height of your sides and rear(s)?
I have f/x500is about 24" above ear level at the sides of the listening position. My direct radiating back surrounds are about 36" above ear level. My room configuration prevents me from mounting the rear speakers any lower, but I am very happy with the results. From what I have read, the most frequent advice is to locate the listener in the null of dipole speakers particularly for 5.1 configurations. Since dipoles inherently produce a diffuse sound field when the listener is in the null, they can be mounted closer to ear level without sounding unduly "in-your-face". In the case of direct radiating speakers used for side surrounds, the advice has been mount them higher to create a diffuse sound field by pointing them over the listeners ears.
I believe the objectives of configurations with surround back speakers (6.1/7.1) has by necessity changed a little from the objective of 5.1 configurations, and therefore the recommended types of surround speakers and their mounting positions have also changed. In a 5.1 configuration the surrounds must provide a compromise between direct, localized surround sounds and diffuse surround fields. After all, movies have both types of sounds, i.e., direct= bullet whizzing over your head, diffuse=rain coming down all around you. With the advent of surround back channels it is now possible to use direct radiating speakers in the rear to better handle the direct sounds (and multi-channel music) and dipole speakers on the sides to handle, ambient and diffuse sound fields. So the object in a system with back surrounds is to be able to hear direct sounds panning forcefully from front to rear between the direct radiating speakers in the front and rear. The ambient sounds are filled in by side-mounted dipole speakers. By the way, this means that when you get this dialed-in, the sound coming from your sides will probably be less noticeable that when you had a pure 5.1 configuration.
For directing radiating speakers the general advice, whether they be in the front or rear is to position the tweeters approximately at ear level and point them at the listener. This is true for the mains which are toed-in and the front center which is pointed up or down in the direction of your ears. Likewise, but perhaps to a lesser degree, the direct radiating rear surround speakers can be mounted somewhat at ear level and pointed at the primary listener. However, in many typical rooms, there is not sufficient distance between the surround speakers and the listener especially in the non-sweet spot cheap seats. In these cases it might be better to mount them higher to gain distance.
With regard to factoring in the front soundstage, the only recommendation I have read on the subject comes from the Lexicon folks with their 7-channel Logic 7 process. They feel that the sound coming from your front three speakers should wrap around into the side surrounds. Therefore, they recommend moving the side dipoles slightly forward rather than exactly to the side of the listening position. However, I believe that their high-end processors also permit fine-tuning the surround parameters to a degree not available in typical surround receivers so I would be cautious about compromising the null positioning.
In summary, I would recommend starting with side mounted dipoles and a single direct radiating surround back. Then after calibrating the system listen carefully to the rear surround for rear to front sound reversals, and for holes in the surround field. Listen in the primary listening spot, but also listen in the worst listening position (if you intend to share your home theater with others). If you experience any of these problems add a second surround back speaker. Then recalibrate the system and listen for holes in the front to side soundstage. If theres a gap, then you might experiment with moving the side surrounds slightly forward, and/or increasing the level of the side surounds. Frankly, I dont think my ears would be able to hear a hole.
I hope this helps a little.
Larry -
This is a very good post . . . I'm in the process of rewiring and setting up my system to 7.1 and suffering from a bad case of "paralysis of anlysis":
Here's what I got:
-Onkyo 898 7 x110/ch
-800i front
-cs400i center
-RM7600 sats for surrounds - wall mounted on omni swivel brackets (I know, I need to upgrade my 7600's to blend in w/the 6 1/2' drivers in the front) - these are wall mounted about 3' above ear level, 1' to 2' behind listening position
-RM7600 sats for rear - wall mounted 3.5' above ear level and about 6' behind the listening position. Physical limitations won't allo anything else.
1. I can't decide between the f/x500i or a pair of 35i's for side surrounds to replace the 7600 sats) since I'll play maybe as much music as movies - with 7.1 sound dynamics in mind, which one would you choose. Would the 35i's blend in well with the rest of the systyem or do I need the more substantial 55i
2. the polk manual says that side direct radiatng spkrs should be placed as I have them descibed above, ina 7.1 system, should these be aimed downward?
3. since very little info goes to the rear surrounds, would the 7600 sats (51/4" drivers) be ok for use with either 5/x500i or RT55i/35i for surrounds?
"By the way, this means that when you get this dialed-in, the sound coming from your sides will probably be less noticeable that when you had a pure 5.1 configuration. -
OrangeToupee, hey thanks for your interest man. My HT is in the system showcase--check it out. Since then I have gone to two couches with the rear couch 1 1/2' higher. I think I like it even more than seating on the front couch. Anyway
I have the rt1000's--a little more trouble to run the subs on them but it gives the front stage a little more kick in the bass dept. and sound better for 2ch music.are you running 800i's for fronts along with the 400i for front center?
My fx500i's are little past mid room and are about 2' above ear level. I found this to be best because they are diffused sounding and I did not worry about placing them as I would a direct speaker. My cs245i is all the way at the top of my 8' ceiling and is on a custom bracket that lets me angle it down as much as I want. It is pointing at ear level. Being a direct speaker it sounds very good high and angled. But then again I only have 8' ceiling if it was any higher it would probably be too high.How high do you have your 500i's and 245i above ear level?
Hope this helps---any more questions just ask. Thanks for the RESPECT. Sounds like you are on the right track for a nice Hometheater setup. Have a blast! -
Wow, excellent replies from both Larry and Scott, I really appreciate the advice/knowledge; Larry, I've copied and pasted your post into notepad and will use it for reference when needed. Scott, I like the part about the angle brackets, I'll be looking into that.
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Originally posted by ncstatesman
1. I can't decide between the f/x500i or a pair of 35i's for side surrounds to replace the 7600 sats) since I'll play maybe as much music as movies - with 7.1 sound dynamics in mind, which one would you choose. Would the 35i's blend in well with the rest of the systyem or do I need the more substantial 55i
If you have definitely decided to upgrade your surround speakers I would start with the sides and would use dipole side surrounds either the f/x500, f/x1000s, or the new LSifx to improve my enjoyment of movies. Im not well versed on multi-channel music, but I have read that direct radiating speakers mounted in the rear corners of a room work quite well. So if I were you I would start by using what I have for the rear surrounds and mount them fairly far apart on the rear wall. If that doesnt sound good for music I would upgrade to whatever my budget would permit, probably the 55is since you are a music enthusiast. I would aim the rear speakers downward and that should serve you well for either music or movies.Originally posted by ncstatesman
2. the polk manual says that side direct radiatng spkrs should be placed as I have them descibed above, ina 7.1 system, should these be aimed downward?
If you decide not to go with dipole side surrounds and continue to use your direct radiating satellites, then as I described in my earlier posting, I would mount them high without aiming them downward in order to project a more diffuse sound field.Originally posted by ncstatesman
3. since very little info goes to the rear surrounds, would the 7600 sats (51/4" drivers) be ok for use with either 5/x500i or RT55i/35i for surrounds?
I would disagree somewhat with part of your general statement that very little information goes to the rear surrounds. Obviously, this depends entirely on what movie youve selected. Its a well known law of nature that people who upgrade to rear channel systems always buy movies with rear channel sound effects.
But seriously, a lot of folks erroneously think that you have to have Surround EX or DTS-ES encoded movies in order to have any sounds coming from the surround back speakers. This is not the case. Any movie that has a lot of side surround content, especially if that content has a lot of in-phase information, will produce rear channel effects that can sound as good as some of the specially encoded material. I have mentioned in an other posting that my favorite rear channel movie (Saving Private Ryan) does not even have back encoded material, but it is almost too enveloping for some of my guests to handle.
However, just because I think there's more to the back surrounds than many people think doesn't mean I recommend going out and spending a lot of money on new speakers. In my own case when I upgraded my front center (CS100) and side surrounds (M3IIs) I relocated them to the rear wall and split the surround back signal three ways to power them. These modest speakers sound great to me for movies. So to answer your question, yes I would start with what you have because it doesn't cost you anything. Later you can alway upgrade if its not to your liking.
If you have a multi-channel DVD-Audio player you might be forced to upgrade the rear speakers sooner.
Larry -
Originally posted by OrangeToupee
Wow, excellent replies from both Larry and Scott, I really appreciate the advice/knowledge; Larry, I've copied and pasted your post into notepad and will use it for reference when needed. Scott, I like the part about the angle brackets, I'll be looking into that.
Orange:
I'm sincerely flattered
, but all this rear, multi-channel surround sound stuff is still experimental as far as I'm concerned. In other words, no matter how logical something may sound on paper, its all about experimenting with what works best in your own listening room. That's why I always recommend upgrading in small stages, and reusing what you already have first. It stretches your upgrade dollars.
Have fun!
Larry
