Bananas or no bananas??

C J T

So this is another one of those questions i am sure i will get plenty of answers on.

Yesterday I went to the top stereo store in our little city...they sell Denon, NAD, B & W, Rotel etc...all good names. They have been in business 50 years here ..they are called Sound Hounds.

He is trying to sell me a Denon receiver. Still not sure on it or the Yamaha. Anyways.....I ask him about speaker connections. Banana plugs, pin connectors (I think they are called) etc...he says the best way to connect a speaker is straight wire to speaker. Nothing in between. Better with nothing in between as it is a direct connection. bananas are only good for convenience if you are plugging and unplugging lots. He says.

Opinions please? Thanks.

dorokusai

I like bananas, but only when they are ripe and gold plated

gidrah

I'm a bare wire guy myself. I have used bananas in the past but found myself having to remove them too often when I changed to something that didn't take them.

Tour2ma

The issue centers on minimizing connections in the signal path adding bananas doubles the number one to two at that end of the run (wire to post vs. wire to banana plus banana to post)...

That said I use bananas on the back of my amp(s) as it is a more sure way of avoiding a dead short in the output. Right now I don't swap out speakers very often, so the speaker ends are direct wire. However, if I did swap speakers frequently, I would not hesitiate to use bananas on the speaker end as well.

Toxis

As already stated, Banana's are only good if you do a lot of speaker or receiver switching. Otherwise, why make the signal jump through yet another hoop? The shortest path from point A (Source) to B (Speaker/Drivers), the better. Period.

amulford

I use banannas, but only because I have this fetish. (Oh, your talking about connectors)

I do use the connectors, too. I move things to clean and such, it makes it easier...

audiobliss

I'm glad this thread popped up as I'm really not clear on the various means of pluggin' all your stuff together. I've read about several different types such as bananas and spades. What are all the different ways to hook up your gear? I assume there's a few more...

okiepolkie

With copper's tendency to oxidize relatively quickly, how do I keep a pure, clean connection between the amp and speaker for long periods of time? My solution so far has been to cut the ends off about once a year(or sooner) and re-strip for bare wire connections.

Does better quality(higher priced) wire mean there will be less oxidation? The only way to bypass the oxidatoin issue to me would be to use solid gold wire, but then there are other issues.

BTW, I use bananas because I do move things around a lot right now trying to learn how my living room affects the sound of my speakers and the converse.

F1nut

A really good soldered and silicone sealed connection is the best way. I like banana's, but spades aren't bad either. Bare wire...never.

Tour2ma

Damn, Jesse, how do we managed to get along so well?

Trimming ends is exactly what I have done for years...

F1nut

I'll have you in banana's if you keep hanging around me.

Tour2ma

I gots dual bananers... Bare wire in them gets trimmed twice a year when I clean all my connections, when the time changes...

Easier in the Fall, 'cause I have an extra hour to kill...

F1nut

Ah, I see. Well then, I'll have you soldering those connections and filling the gaps with sealant.

VR3

As much as I change out speaker wires and what not, the last thing I am going to do is put connectors on the end, heck as much as I unplug my gear and move stuff, it dosnt even matter because I re-strip the end and everything when I do, so it dosnt even matter. If my cabes get past the shiny look, they are lucky!

And I dont see the point, heck why would you want to put MORE stuff between it and the signal to the speakers? @_@

F1nut

I don't know Sid, maybe it's because I'm not a virgin and get a thrill putting a hard pin into tight fitting hole.

Or it could be that the cables I use come terminated, soldered and sealed. If you're moving gear around as much as you say, banana's make the most sense.

dorokusai

If you like bare wire, try tinning your wires with some quality solder...you wouldn't have to trim them all the time.

Tour2ma

True, but I like a little trim every once in a while... Don't you?

dorokusai

LOL Yea, I guess so.

C J T

Lots of different opinions. I am using bare wire now. Can not hear a difference. I think sometimes it's all psychological in this stereo world. Bananas are more convenient. Makes sense to have as little between a connection as possible to me.

W4HBM

1. This compound called No-Ox-Id "A" (Special) (tm), made by SANCHEM in Chicago, works absolute wonders on audio connections.

2. No-Ox (as it's commonly called) is available in squeeze tubes in version "A" (Special), or in little plastic jars, ("A"). The difference is that the (Special) is a little less viscous and easier to squeeze out of a tube.

3. The jar type No-Ox, being more viscous, naturally protects longer. However, application is interesting:

4. The jar of No-Ox can be heated with a blow dryer right on the material surface. When it becomes liquid (and will only stay that way for a few seconds), wires and connectors may be dipped and when extracted will contain a very thin coat.

5. The telephone company has been using No-Ox for seventy years. I have seen fifty-year-old No-Ox on connectors that I've disassembled and the stuff is still goopy and the connections are still bright and shiny as the day they were made.

6. Tinning stranded wires destined for mechanical compression-type connectors defeats the purpose of the mechanical compression. When you insert a set of bare copper wires that are clean and protected with stuff like No-Ox into a speaker thread-type compression connector, the resultant force of the compression on all the strands is what makes a good connection.

7. No-Ox also works well on RCA 1/8 phone, 1/4 phone and even USB connectors.

8. Silicone, perhaps RTV as well known, is a destroyer of electronic componentry. The acetic acid in its composition will corrode or exacerbate corrosion. Leave RTV ioff your list. If you can't get No-Ox then use ordinary white Lithium grease, but very sparingly.

Lastly, I quote from a Bell Systems manual on making a connection:

"The mating surfaces of the connection shall be burnished to a bright metallic finish and coated with a thin layer of No-Ox-Id anticorrosion paste to preserve continuity indefinitely."

Respectfully submitted,

hal

F1nut

Hal,

You brought up a very good point about silicone, so I took a look at my cables. They are sealed, but it looks like it might be hot glue or something like it, definitely not silicone. I edited my posts above to reflect that.

Good call.

dorokusai

Just what I want on my home audio connectors....No-Ox.....the stuff I just love cleaning off of ground bars when doing PM's and my shirts....my arms....my pants.

Not in this house....and I've used it for 13 years in military/telecom.

Would it work? Sure, that's it's purpose.

W4HBM

Certainly a small film of No-Ox, carefully worked in to a bunch of copper strands and then the excess wiped off with a tissue is not like the stuff on ground bars.

You are right about the mess when dealing with copper buss bars, especially when installing new ones in power plants. We would take all the 1/4 inch thick laminations and gob on a pile of No-Ox and spread it around with a plaster trowel, using the heat gun to melt our way around. After nine laminations on a 600 pound bussbar assemby our crew was elbow-deep in No-Ox.

Surprisingly, the telephone c/o folks let us use Hoppe's #9 gun oil and a bit of MEK to clean up with. They loved the smell of the Hoppe's: a real masculine icon that many of the gun collectors
immediately recognized.

But for places that frowned on solvents in the c/o we needed to clean up with paper towels and that, after a full buss bar was a waste of paper. An old Bell Hand clued me in when he saw me in the head trying to wash off a day's worth of No-Ox plus the wax from the lacing cord, a slow process, to using coffee grounds!

Lo and behold: It works! Mix coffee grounds and dish soap and all that nonsense grinds right off.

As far as bringing stuff home, I broke in the YL to my job many years ago as an apprentice when I'd come home black from head to toe, tracking carbon across the walkway, accumulated after travelling around the metro c/o's changing brushes on MG sets.

(I had to leave my clothes in the garage).

But for all the bad memories of No-Ox up to our eyeballs, it still works wonders, especially on those pesky RCA connectors that tend to corrodeon the inner surfaces of the ground shell.....

On my system, which is a hybrid 7-channel discrete pile of monoblocs and other stuff some 25 years old, No-Ox has proven its worth with the seemingly "billions" of connections.
LOL

Hal

Tour2ma

Originally posted by W4HBM
1. This compound called No-Ox-Id "A" (Special) (tm), made by SANCHEM in Chicago, works absolute wonders on audio connections.

Respectfully submitted,

hal

Not sure at this point if you are a computer or somply a graduate of Faber College...

Hal,
Interesting stuff...

Is "No-Ox-Id" simply a sealant, or is it conductive as well? Do you recall a home audio product called "Tweak", a conductive, high viscosity ferro fluid. I can't seem to find it anymore.

Couple points, when you mention a product like this:
- make it clear whether you are recommending it or not (both you and doro seem to agree on it being a mess to work with); and
- provide a link in case folks do wnat to look into it further...

Nicely composed posts...

dorokusai

W4HBM - Let me be specific and say that I agree, I just wouldn't use it myself. It's a great product nonetheless, and a must for any grounding application. I always think mess when No-Ox is in the mix, certainly carfeul application would be the key. Excellent suggestion.

Compression is king, but I do think that tinning ends, in an audio application is a good idea, based on specific application. I suggested it as a way to avoid constantly trimming ends, not as an end all solution.

I personally move way to many speakers in and out of my gear to use anything but the easiest of connections. I don't worry about whether one connection sonically is better than the other, we have better things to do, you know what I mean? Let the freaks handle the crazy levels of audio.

Tour - Yes, it's conductive. Ideal Industries makes Noalox, which is basically the same thing.

Ideal Noalox Cat. No. 30-030(8 Oz. btl)

SANCHEM No-Ox

Tour2ma

Domo, dorosan...

shack

For some reason the song "Yes, We Have No Bananas!" keep running through my head....

I've been a "bare" wire guy for 35 years. My Beloved RT55is were "penetrated' for the very first time at the Polkfest. I watched in horror as the caps were violently ripped from the binding posts and the long rigid bananas were forcefully thrust into thier depths. They survived and seemed to sing even more gloriously than ever. Was it the stiff banana or the power behind it? Who knows?

I am now the proud owner of my first set of banana termiated speaker cables (thanks to Signal Cables generous support of the Polkfest). I may be converted to the ease of use they offer.

dave shepard

Hal,
Just a wild guess you into ham radio? Most of the stuff mentioned is mostly used by ham radio operators who build Heath kit stuff for their rigs.

Dave

*EDIT* also welcome to the forum

W4HBM

Dear Dave,

Electronics, both AF and RF, have been my employer and hobby since 1963.

I started out as an apprentice in c/o's and worked at night and on weekends repairing tube amplifiers in NYC for a couple of production companies featuring live performers with tube style equipment that was always breaking at the worst moments.

From there I went into broadcast engineering as a sideline while still getting No-Ox up to my elbows and have followed the AF and RF gigs since then.

To answer a previous post I am strongy suggesting No-Ox as a dielectric paste that preserves the conductive finish. The material does not conduct electricity per se, and I use it on all AF and low frequency (Below 30MHz) RF connectors and have never had a glitch because of its presence.

The ideal amount of No-Ox to use is one molecule thick. No gobs. If a person takes care to wipe off excess with a clean paper towel the residue, barely seen, even, is plenty enough to forestall corrosion. I even use the stuff on gold-plated edge connectors on circuit cards. I own an old Yamaha DSP-A100 integrated 5.1 rig that Circuit City sold for $50.00 because after it sat around being demo'd the interior flat ribbon cable connections corroded and the amp lost its snot, so to speak. It took fifty hours of repairs, taking it completely apart and burnishing the non-soldered connections, but it worked. (I attended the Panasonic Technical schools for Digital Electronic, Broadcast and Computer Repair and that's where I learned of the built-in obsolescence that non-soldered connections afford.) Even the expensive microprocessor chips that plug in to receptacles decline in conductivity over time, except when protected by No-Ox, so as soon as I purchase a piece of equipment I yank it apart and goop up the non-solderables 'cause I know they're ticking bombs (the sunsabeetches).

Hal

dave shepard

I only made the observation of ham radio because my dad was into it for 50yrs and I seen him put Heath kits together using simular stuff.

Tour2ma

Originally posted by shack
My Beloved RT55is were "penetrated' for the very first time at the Polkfest. I watched in horror as the caps were violently ripped from the binding posts and the long rigid bananas were forcefully thrust into thier depths.

Damn... I need a cigarette after that...