Need help matching fronts with surrounds

kanicker · February 2002

I really like the sound of my setup in 2 channel stereo. I have a reciever that has a 5 channel stereo, but it doesnt sound as good to my ears. This may be because my fronts (800i) and surrounds (Infinity bookshelfs) do not match at all.

To this point I've enjoyed my home theater experience with my speaker selection. Ambient and surround effects blend in well. But the Inifinity's simply have no depth and seem to distract me from the stereo experience in 5 channel mode.

Does anyone think that if I acquired a pair of 55is and used them as surrounds that this would solve my problem?

Or should I not expect 5 channel stereo to approach the quality of 2 channel stereo? Theoretically, even if I bought another pair of 800i for surrounds, would that distract from a true "stereo" listening experience?

Shall I be content with what I have? I don't think its an issue of more power...

Thanks in advance for any help!

kanicker

danger boy · February 2002

hey kanicker,
what kind of receiver do you have? I'm just curious. My experience has been.. that if you take a stereo ( 2ch) signal and up-mix it to 5 channel stereo it's not going to sound all that good. This is just my opinion anyway.. others may have different experiences. Like if I watch an old VHS movie that was recorded in 2 channel stereo then try to listen to is in pro logic or 5 channel, it doesn't sound very real.
so it's probably not your speaker set up.. i think it's more of taking a 2 channel stereo signal and mixing it to 5 channels.
what do you think guys?

oh yeah, matching your brand of speakers will make a difference too. but not as much as you discribe.
What 2 channel stereo audio are you listening to?

juice21 · February 2002

i also choose to listen to my 2-channel stereo recordings in 2 channel, also running rt800i's. i am eager to listen to SACD/DVD-A 5 channel in my home, but this was recordeed with 5-channel playback in mind, unlike 2-channel recordings. it is probably the reciever's 5-channel up-mix that you are not enjoying as much, rather than the actual speakers. matching your rears will help, but only a little. you could also probably use rt35i's in the rear and get pleasurable results...

TrappedUnder Ice · February 2002

If you were to upgrade your rears.. you dont have to go 55's.. you could go 35's or 25's... the tweeters would still match and both those speakers are great for surround/music IMO

joe logston · February 2002

hi kanincker, what kind of center you have thats whats importen you need to match all your tweeters, tweeters give out the location of sound alot more than meds & lows thats why you tember match or have the same tweeters the better the match the better the suround sound

kanicker · February 2002

Thank you all for your comments! It's useful to get opinions on this. I have a Harman/Kardon 310 Reciever, and my center channel is a Polk 245i.

I believe you may be right about this 2channel to 5 channel matrixing. It probably has its flaws. I have heard that Dolby Pro Logic II might be better for this, anyone with experience on this?

Not that I could with my current setup, but what about setting up a second stereo pair using a b channel on a reciever? Anyone using 2 stereo paris to listen to music?

Many of you are recommending 35i or 25i over the 55i. If money was not an issue, would you still say this? The 55is just looked like the closest thing short of getting duplicate 800is for the surround.

This forum certainly is a well of knowledge!

pdebaum · February 2002

Well, if you're talking music, most material is of course stereo 2 channels, and I believe no amount of processing will beat the stereo listening with 2 good main speakers. Like you I find any DSP or rerouting trick just lacking. On the other hand, without going to high-end SACD or DVD audio, good multi-channel recordings, such as the DD 5.1 or DTS tracks of Fantasia 2000, sound really fantastic with all the surround and center speakers.
For movie listening, you want the extra processing applied to the stereo 2 channels, no contest.

TrappedUnder Ice · February 2002

If money was no object... yes.. the 55i's definatly... then heck..might as well get some 800is'... Ive seen them for 230 ea locay these days.. most are trading up since prices have dropped

OrangeToupee · February 2002

Running your 800i's on A and perhaps a pair of 35i's on B will certainly sound nice. It would still be two channel and you'd be right in the center (room dimension providing) of it all. As far as 5 channel music goes, well it's all in the recording; some/most recordings sound far better in 2 channel, and some/not many sound far better in 5 channel.

juice21 · February 2002

Originally posted by OrangeToupee
Running your 800i's on A and perhaps a pair of 35i's on B will certainly sound nice. It would still be two channel and you'd be right in the center (room dimension providing) of it all. As far as 5 channel music goes, well it's all in the recording; some/most recordings sound far better in 2 channel, and some/not many sound far better in 5 channel.

800's on A and 35's on B sound amazing in a HS application. i demoed this with mine one day. these were placed atop each other, still in a typical stereo speaker set-up(both speaks have the same footprint, so the 35's fit perfectly atop the 800's). couldn't get a feel for what it would do for HT set-up, since my rec. plays a stereo downmix when recieving a DD encoding with both A & B fronts on, but in 2 channel stereo, it was amazing!!! this wouldn't create the surrounding experience you were commenting on earlier, just thought i'd throw in my .02 on the A/B speaker set-up. the 35's really added some sweet highs and transparency that the 800's lacked on their own...

(this wasn't meant to confuse you any further, if it did...:D )

OrangeToupee · February 2002

I'm currently sitting at my computer with a pair of 35i's on stands, about fifteen feet apart (7 1/2' on either side of me and about 5' behind me) and both firing about 1' to either side of my computer chair. I really like hearing the way this sounds. What am I getting at? I don't know, but there's got to be a reason.... oh yeah, I like the way this sounds. This leads me to believe that what I really want is a large (the bigger the better) square room with four 35i's roughly cornered and on stands, with two HSU VTF-2 subs appropriately placed within this room. Oh, and the room should have vaulted ceilings. I'd like a nice 2 channel, 200 watt amp to power the 35i's. I guess the point of all of this is that although stacking speakers would be interesting to try, and no doubt sound hot, I have a vision. I'm going to have to leave the 800i's, 400is, 500i's and Velodyne CT-120 in their role as home theater patrol. I would like to add a 245i or it's offspring for the rear center, but that's the home theater stuff again. I've become transfixed with the idea of a mammoth, dedicated, 2 channel music room and I can't stop thinking about the best way to do it. What would you do, or have done?

juice21 · February 2002

my HT room unfortunately is my HS room as well. i would love to have a dedicated listening room, with much of the same as you. the 35i's are amazing, musically. i can just imagine them powered with a quality 200Wx2 amplifier. I have an HSU on the way(which i am very excited about, already thinking about a second...) unfortunately for now, townhouse living leave me no extra room to convert to a dedicated 2-channell stereo listening room. if i did though, and when i do:D, i am going to give the LSi9's a serious listen, and demo some quality CD transports, a 200Wx2 amplifier, and possibly a musichall mmf-2 turntable to get me into the analog...

i too, have a dream, and it is a dedicated 2-channel listening room...:D

kanicker · February 2002

So after taking into account all your kind opinions here on this forum, I decided to go pick myself up some 35is. Well, I went to Fry's Electronics here in Sacramento, CA and guess what:
They had 35i at 179 a pair and 55i at 279 a pair! This is the same place I picked up my 800i at 399 a pair! (Of course the 800i are back up to 499 a pair.)

Hmmm.... so what to do? Even though the discount t original price ratio was better for the 35i, I wanted to go with the 55i. I would be putting these on speaker stands behind the couch, so I had to take into account height. (55i would have higher tweeter placement) The cabinet is wider and deeper in the 55i vs the 800i. That was a con. Space was sort of an issue. Also $100 more is also a con.

I took a gamble that since the 55i greatly resembled the 800i tweeter/double midrange setup, that the sound would match. This just might be an economical way of having the sound of 4 800is without the investment.

So 55is it was. Side note: When I went to get a price quote and check out they gave me a little resistance, since the pair keep coming up as 399; we had to wait for a super manager had to come by and ok it.

Took em home, set them up. And although the purchase means its going to be a lean lean month, oh man oh boy is it worth it. I wanted a home audio setup that focused on music and also could do a fair job on movies. I also wanted stereo music to really fill up the room; in other words, wherever you sat would sound pretty good. I posted earlier in this thread that my 5 channel experience didnt sound right with my Infinity bookshelfs. Now it sounds so full and accurate even at medium and low volumes. If you are really into stereo music, I'd recommend this setup:

800i fronts
55i surrounds in rear position parallel to 800i
245i center
reasonable subwoofer of your choice (only turned on for home theater, I have an 8" Audiosource)

Some might say that the 245i might get lost in all the bigger noise. I couldn't rationalize spending that much for the 400i, even at serious discount at Good Guys) In my receiver setup, in Dolby Digital mode and DTS, I do have all other channels other than center adjusted -3db to compensate, and that works just dandy) I really like the sound of the 245i in any event, and the 400i would presents problems given it size.

Here is a question: How many of you listen to your Polks with the fabric grill off? It almost seems to sound a little better that way. I cant decide if thats a good thing to do yet. I dont want to damage my speakers, and Im not sure about the way it looks.

So my total Polk Investment is $800. I think Ill stop there. I wait until I own my own home (and audio room) before I even think about the Lsi line. Oh do I feel lucky that I found Polk in this transitional stage!

Thanks again to all!!

OrangeToupee · February 2002

Juice, pardon me once again for my enduring ignorance, but what is a "CD transport"? I honestly don't know what that means, but I'd surely like to.

joe logston · February 2002

on two channel i was in high end autio for about 11 yrs. i been through it all, i have a closet that haves all my aragon stuff, aragon 4004 mark 2 amp, aragon 24k sp pre amp, a aragon d2a da converter. but multi-channel is better, it started wend i got into home theater and the more i played with multi-channel the more that 2 channel had something missing. but i tried to stay with my high end stuff with all the money i put into it it is a waste . my yamaha rx-v1 receier out dose the aragon because of the multi-channel what i need is 2 more 4004 mark 2 amps for the power that the aragon haves i tried the aragon with the yamaha but to much diffrence. but the yamaha kicks **** i have to say if i had all aragon amps with the yamaha it would be like i was in paradise but to much money my wife is ready to kick me out for buying all that i have. but multi- channel is the way to go just keep tweaking and setting up till right and you will get it.

juice21 · February 2002

Originally posted by OrangeToupee
Juice, pardon me once again for my enduring ignorance, but what is a "CD transport"? I honestly don't know what that means, but I'd surely like to.

pretty much just an audiophile term for a hi-end cd player...

OrangeToupee · February 2002

Ah, thanks, I see. I think I'm going to wait and see what these new formats do to the industry before I buy a new player. I had been thinking cd player, but now with SACD and DVD-A I think I'll wait a few months to try and learn as much about the direction of this as I can. Paul DiComo provided a link to another board on one of our other threads that really got me thinking about this more. Here's the copy and paste of it if you're interested and have not already read it ...

The posters name is Alex F.

"Troy:

Hopefully your other dealer will actually have an up-and-running, broken-in set of LSi's.

Yes, I am indeed interested in the new higher resolution formats. More than I can put simply into words, in fact. I was part of the "beta" testing of the original CD format prior to its release. Along with the few other audiophiles involved at the time, we were all aghast at the sound "quality" of the format. It was a step backwards in musicality. We all pleaded for an increase in the bit rate and memory capacity in order to solve the inherent limitations of the format. But our cries fell upon deaf ears.

SACD is the direct descendent of the CD format. It provides all that was asked for originally (and could have been provided), and we now can hear the benefits. Makes one wonder if Sony and Philips deliberately imposed performance limitations on the redbook format as an exercise in planned obsolesence. Consumers now have the privilege of replacing all their performance-limited, obsolete CD players, transports, and CDs.

What Sony and Philips didn't see coming was competition in the form of DVD-A.

I have been extremely impressed with SACD's performance, as heard at a local high-end dealer. I've yet to hear DVD-A. I have decided to wait for the formats to finish their fight for dominance. Or at least to see who is the de facto winner. Once the hardware and software battles are over and one (or both, in a tie?) emerges as a winner, I will obtain a player.

As an audiophile, I have waited a very long time for digital to deliver on its promise of accurate, high-resolution sound. I just now need to wait a little bit longer."

Perhaps the pleasure of the turntable and the convenience of the cd player can actually become one and the same?

joe logston · February 2002

i heard that sony is coming out with a new sacd mulit-channel player in a few mos. i need something to, i use a dvp-s7000 sony dvd player as a soruce transport, it makes one of the best redbook players there are, but i need a multi-channel player, and i been waiting for a long time now i hope something will come out that plays evrything.

OrangeToupee · February 2002

Joe, I am right there with you, and for me that would also include the MP3 format as well. What a space saver! I too am hoping for that all in one type of player that doesn't sacrifice sound for versatility.

hamzahsh · February 2002

If you listen music especially from CDs or tapes stick with 2-channel stereo. The 2 channel would provide more loud, rich and full sound. If you listen DVD-audio or SACD then stick with 6 or 8 channels.

I hate DSPs they are fake to my imagination. Normal mode is the best.

I've love RT 800is, man what a music. Bass bass! crystal clear sound. The dual drivers really makes a difference kicks everything!

Need help matching fronts with surrounds

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