Dynamic range performers

Wattsup

I'm looking at purchasing one or possibly two new amps for my 04 Nissan Frontier King cab. The system I wish to build will include my DX3065's mounted in the existing door speaker locations and more or less utilize the same pillar mount locations as the OEM tweeters for the DX tweeters. Although I enjoy listening to music at relatively high volume levels, what's more important to me is a system that is capable of reproducing very high dynamic ranges. I'm not one who is into bass notes. Two 8 inch subs should be able to provide me with the bass performance I want. Therefore the complete speaker system will be the DX3065's and the two 8 inch subs. I plan on using two amps. One amp dedicated to powering only the DX's and another dedicated to powering the subs only? Idealy I would like a system that can produce dynamic ranges of 3 dB or higher at the amps "continuous rated output" (not including the subs). S/N ratio of 100 dB or higher and costing 600 dollars or less for both amps. Does anyone have an opinion on a specific manufacture or if I will even be able to have my needs met for the money I wish to spend? Any and all replies welcome.
Cheers

neomagus00

i'm not entirely sure what you mean by dynamic range... it sounds like you want a lot of headroom in your amps... that is, you don't want them to clip when you're listening to loud music and it gets louder for a bit? if that's the case, i'd reccommend two things. one, get an amp with a peak power at least twice what the rms power is (easy enough, just go with a decent manufacturer). second, and more expensive, run your amps at high ohm loads - don't parallel the subs down any lower than their nominal if you can help it (you shouldn't really connect them in series, but if you must use a monoblock amp, do it; ideally you would use a two channel amp, with each sub going to a different channel). s/n ratio amongst good manufacturers doesn't really matter - do you think you can hear 1 dB of amp noise above the 96 decibels of music? nope - you're gonna hear the introduced noise, which is why you should spend money on good rcas - i run stinger experts, there's a couple other good brands floating around out there that you'll hear about shortly. what 8's are you planning on running? in what kind of box?

exalted512

www.ikesound.com
>>hifonics
-Cody

MacLeod

For $600 I highly recommend Crossfire. They are very powerful and clean and are very well built.

For the fronts, Id go with this VR404 and bi-amp the speakers with a very underrated 50x4.

Then for the subs try this VR401 . Itll put out around 250 or so per sub.

Wattsup

Thank you for taking the time and responding everyone. As of yet I am uncertain which manufacture I should look into as far as the 8 inch subs go. I do know that I don't want a system with it's emphasis on producing a lot of bass. What I am wanting is a balanced system that has the ability to reproduce musical instruments and the human voice in detail and as close to neutral and natural as possible. However, I am aware that what sounds good to one might not to another. My preference for bass speaker enclosures leans towards acoustic supension and passive radiator. I like the tight sounding bass associated with acoustic suspension. Yet, with a bit more impact and resonance that one is sometimes able to achieve with passive radiator type enclosures. However, I am open to any sort of sub set up if it helps to "bring it all together" by blending smoothly. What kind of recommendations for 8 inch subs and type of enclosure do all of you suggest.
PS. Oops...my bad! Yes, dynamic headroom is the term I was mistakenly referring to as: "dynamic range".

exalted512

polk makes 8" subs...
and this is a polk forum...
-Cody

neomagus00

just as a note, there are many many tens and twelves that can reproduce bass notes with startling clarity and musicality, they're not all built for sheer sound level. unless you have a price or space limit, i highly reccommend a larger subwoofer - it will reach the deeper notes with greater ease; volume level is easily controlled with the gain on the appropriate amp; as you mentioned, go sealed/acoustic suspension for optimum musicality (some ported boxes can sound quite good, but they don't sound right for you). do you have a price limit for the subs?

MacLeod

Agreed. A 10 will sound better than an 8 usually.

As far as good SQ subs, there are plenty. Focal is perhaps one of the sweeter sounding subs around but costs a bunch. JL Audio, Xtant and Diamond Audio also make excellent SQ subs.

neomagus00

and eclipse, and polk, and adire, and ID... i'm partial to eclipse...

Wattsup

I'm willing to spend around 300 US dollars for the sub/s. Sub/s being one or two drivers and it's enclosure. Size is a consideration and one of the reasons I am considering using 8" subs. I would consider a sub with a single 10" driver but the 12" inch subs are pretty much out of the question. Now would I be better off building a sub that utilizes two drivers or just a single driver. And of the two, which type of enclosure would be more compact. One 10" sub or a sub using two 8" drivers. Overall length of the enclosure isn't my main concern as is the enclosures overall height and depth. Perhaps I'm misguided and although it would be nice, I need to reserve some of my King Cabs space for things other then speakers. lol. Should I attempt to purchase seperate speakers and then try and find or build an enclosure to house them? Or would I be better off buying a completed sub. I'm good with my hands and have access to a table saw, router, ect. Locating the appropriate materials and box design maybe the hardest part. However, it may provide me with an opprotunity to find out how an enclosure made from 3/4" or 1" PVC or high density polypropylene might sound. Of course, now the big question...am I willing to do the work?

LittleCar_w/12s

also you can get a Kicker 10" L5 or L7, they have larger surface area than a 10" round (78sqin. vs. 100sqin.) They perform well, but a little less musical in my opinion.

LittleCar_w/12s

Here's pricing and specs for some at sounddomain:
SoloBaric L5
SoloBaric L7
Mind you, the dual 4-ohm models are cheaper, and the dual 1-ohm models are really expensive...

MacLeod

Check out the Orion P10. It goes for about $200, hits like a ****, will handle 500 watts easily and will work in a quite small .4 box.

There is also the Diamon Audio M6 10 that handles 800 watts and also works in a small box at .5. They are a little more expensive at around $250-300.

Wattsup

Once again everyone...thank you for all the help. It is very much appreciated.
I have one more question that I would like some input on regarding subs with dual voice coils vs. single voice coils. What's the when and why on their application? Is it something I may want to consider?

exalted512

sometimes its better to have DVC(dual voice coils) so you can get your load to 1 ohm...this way you can buy an amp thats 1 ohm stable and it turns out being cheaper...let me explain better
lets say you have 2 SVC 4 ohm subs
you can wire this down to a 2 ohm load
lets say they are 500 watts each
so you need an amp that does 500 watts x 2 channels @ 2 ohms

the amp you would need for this, if it was 1 ohm stable would put out something like this
500watts @ 4 ohms
1000 watts @ 2 ohms
1500 watts @ 1 ohm

lets say that amp costs $300

but you also have the choice of subs that are DVC 4ohm subs
the subs will not be any cheaper though, sound quality and how loud it gets are not affected
now you could wire each sub to 2 ohms, then wire both together to a 1 ohm load

the amp you would need for this would do something like
300 watts@4ohms
600 watts@ 2 ohms
1000 watts@1ohm

as you can see, since the amp will be putting out its full power, it will be cheaper
-Cody

Wattsup

Awesome...thank you Cody!

I had been misinformed that DVC subs provided a means of obtaining two channel stereo bass using only one speaker. That explaination just didn't sit right with me so I am glad that I asked the question.

Without trying to put anyone down or attempting to start up a flame war, (moderators please feel free to delete/edit this post should it not be considered appropriate) I notice that some people have recommend speakers or amps made by JL. Has this companies quality done a complete 180? As I recall, at least it was this way a number of years ago, that JL aka Jet Labs, quality was not as good as one would of umm,. . . hoped for.

exalted512

some people like JL, some people dont
im one of the latter
macleod on here likes em
we fight about it all the time and the mods havent deleted anything yet
lol
their high end stuff is quality stuff...but lets just say they are very proud of their equipment so they charge you out the **** for it
their amps are fully regulated...meaning it doesnt matter what impedance(or ohms) youre putting on the amp...itll put out the same amount of power
the JL1000/1 will put out 1000 watts at 4,3,2, and 1 ohm
i wouldnt recommend JL because of their horrid price, but if you can get a deal on them...its good stuff
my personal favorite brand of amps is HiFonics...great amps at a low price
you can find them on sounddomain
-Cody

MacLeod

JL is in the high end league and so you can expect to pay high end prices. $1000 for a JL 1000 watt amp is competitive with a lot of 1000 watt amps from guys like Xtant and Orion.

However, I dont think ANY amp is worth $1000 regardless of the manufactuer. Speakers on the other hand I believe you get better the more expensive you go. Amps on the other hand all sound the same. This is made clear by Garry Biggs who has won more SQ comtests than anyone and he did it with Kicker amps and now JBL amps and I wouldnt consider either of them to be in the Xtant category.

The Slash series of JL amps is fully regulated but their E series is not. They are considered the entry level JL amps but the only real differences between the two are a much more flexible x-over on the Slash and the aforementioned regulation. They both use the Absolute Symetry technolgy and are excellent amps at a much more reasonable price.

Wattsup

What's this...you can't actually expect me to believe that one isn't able to hear the subtle differences between one brand of solder vs. another do you? (Joke)

It is most refreshing to have found a forum who's participants are seemingly just as wise as they are knowledgeable.

Once more...thank you everyone for all of the help you have so kindly given me.

Cheers!

MacLeod

Ah, flattery! Gotta love it.

There are some who think different amps sound different. Im not one of em. There are some differences such as headroom and distortion but tonally they all sound the same.

exalted512

youve obviously never heard a tube before...
-Cody

Wattsup

I'd have to say that I am pretty much in complete agreement with you there MacLeod. My late father earned a PhD in zoology where he specialized in animal behavior bio-accoustics. A lot of his research was spent trying to determine the properties of sound and how animals, mostly toothed whales but also humans as well, hearing apparatus such as ears and the brain detected and interpreted sound. One thing he always mentioned was how limited human brains are in being able to detect subtle differences in sound. Independent research (when done properly) has revealed that the human brain is not able to tell when the sounds the ear is detecting is being reproduced using a quality 200 or 300 dollar amplifier vs. one's costing 5 or 10 thousand dollars. I'm not saying that there aren't tonal differences that cannot be heard. Only that the participants being tested were unable to determine when they were listening to the higher priced amp or the lower priced amp. Our brains have a way of hearing what it wants to hear and not hearing what it also does not want to hear. Only when the participants were told which amp they were listening too were they able to hear the subtle differences between amps. However, when falsely told what amp they were listening too and asked to describe the subtle differences they were claiming to hear, the same subtleties would be described. What this reveals is that a lot of what we hear is subjective to our interpretation of what we believe we are hearing. Perhaps this helps to explain why some people swear their system sounds so clean and clear while others are cringing from the distortion coming from this guys speakers while he drives his amp into clipping.

neomagus00

this also explains why we like to buy expensive-as-hell amps... cause to us, they really honestly do sound better, even if it's only in our heads, but that's all that matters, right?

exalted512

if you cant hear a difference b/t 500 watts of USAmps power and 500 watts of Sony Xplod power...youve got issues...
pyscoacoustics does have something to do with a lot of things...you can look at that $10k dollar challenge, but what it doesnt tell you is you dont listen to music, you listen to tones...theres no peaks, no lows....just tones...in which case, yes, most amps will sound the same
put some music in it and youll hear the difference real quick
-Cody

neomagus00

whoa, what?! I thought that challenge was with music! Tones would make it freaking impossible, any amp can do a tone, the human ear can't differentiate that small of a difference in a steady wave like that!

exalted512

im fairly sure i read somewhere that rc's challenge isnt done with music...but i could be wrong
-Cody

AustinKP

Pretty sure that challenge was with music. Bring your own music if I remember correctly. Even if it wasn't, there have been many other studies. One in particular I read used a very high end amp vs. a $2 amp from an alarm clock and not one audiophile could tell the difference.

neomagus00

do you know where i can get a copy of that?

MacLeod

Dont get me wrong. Im not saying all amps are equal. What Im saying is that TONALY they all sound the same. Take my new Crossfires. I recently replace my Alpine amps with them and had the exact same speaker setup. Tonally they are identical. Even tho my Alpine was a $175 amp and my Crossfire is a $380, they sounded identical. The major difference was in detail. The Crossfire is much more powerful and has much more headroom so guitar plucks, snare drum slaps and such are much more detailed and clearer. Also the Crossfires are a lot cleaner. There are recordings that would start to scream a bit with my Alpines but now they are clean as a whistle even at higher volumes than with the Alpines.

This is where your money goes. This and better build quality, crossover networks, power supplies and such is where the difference is between the high end US Amps and the crap Sony.

So, again, Im not saying all amps are identical and play identical. All Im saying is that tonally they are the same.

And the amp challenge is with music. The catch is the amps are run thru a thingamajiggy that keeps the power at a set point so the aforementioned headroom and power doesnt come into play. Youll be listening to the music at 50 watts period. That keeps the playing field level so that all youre listening for is tonal differences and not in power and headroom.

neomagus00

but then how is that test at all valid, if that's what makes or breaks an amp? what's the point of it then? simply to prove that that is all that makes an amp?

MacLeod

The test is valid because it proves that a $1000 Xtant will sound tonally identical to a $100 Jensen. Tonal quality is not what makes or breaks an amp.

A cheaper amp will distort more. It wont have near the headroom or power output capability. It wont have the superior build quality. It wont have the higher quality components. It wont have the superior x-over controls. It wont have a lot of the qualites a more expensive higher end amp will have.

The test is simply on one of many characteristics of an amp. Kind of like judging the transmission of a car. It is just one of many parts.