In-wall Speakers

Striker1817Striker1817 Posts: 15
edited February 2002 in The Clubhouse
After readin a nasty artical in "Home Theater mag," about how in-wall speakers and the way they could be one of the best things to come out, but the only thing holding them back is....the wall. Its a really good idea if ya thing about it, a speaker that can work with the rest of the entire wall as amplification. The only thing the brain of this project didn't come up with was that inside a wall does not lay miles and miles of free space. We have loose boards,screws,nails,electical wires and many other things that might shake, rattle and roll to the displeasure of the listener. What can be done to make this great idea work?
-Chris(16 yer old speaker freak)
Post edited by Striker1817 on

Comments

  • billlbbilllb Posts: 59
    edited February 2002
    striker: In-walls are coming so popular because people are looking for small or hide away speakers and manufactures are doing it. Yes there are problems with say just cutting in the in-walls like they suggest. I am a builder with a passion for A/V so it helps when I get to do these things for customers. First if you can either make a box out of mdf board / condensed particle board and sealed around the edges that is the width to fit in between the 2x4's and the depth. Sonance has perfected this with there in-wall thx system-it works believe me. The other way is to make your existing opening more stiff. Seal along the 2x4's with drywall adhesive where the 2x4's meet the drywall, add 2x4's going cross ways {east & west} and also seal those off with adhesive. Don't forget to put in blanket insulation in the cavity. Now you have just made your own box for your in-walls. Yes there are other tweaks but I am just sharing a real inexpensine and fun way to help out in a way that you can do it and take care of your problem. Have fun that's what it's all about.......Bill
  • jcautjcaut Posts: 1,863
    edited February 2002
    That sounds like a good idea for installing in-wall speakers. I wonder, though, how much effect the volume of the "enclosure" you've created in the wall will have on the performance of the speaker. I've never dealt with, or even looked at in-wall speakers, but I would think that changing the volume in the wall would have a significant effect on the bass performance, and that if an "enclosure" should be constructed in the wall, the manufacturer would specify the correct volume. Do they say anything about that?

    Jason
  • BrandonWBrandonW Posts: 57
    edited February 2002
    Adding a box to a speaker that designed to use an infinite baffel is a BAD idea. It will first ruin the way it sounds, and 2nd will actually DAMAGE the speakers.

    Inwalls are GREAT =) and to be perfectly honest, i've installed alot of inwalls and never had a problem with rattles or nail pops. Bear in mind most of these are crossed over to the point that most of the lower end bass that would rattle and resonate the panels is passed through to a subwoofer somewhere. (did i mention they have inwall subs too?)

    We do over 200k worth of elan inwall stuff every year, and the benfits of not having obtrussive speakers on a table is very very nice. Alot of the new inwalls are THX select, and just recently some THX ultra certifed inwalls are out. I think that says alot about how far inwalls have come.

    None the less box speakers are always going to win an a/b comparision...but sometimes sound has to be sacrificed for (girls/woman/wives that like to decorate)

    Brandon
  • shackshack Posts: 11,284
    edited February 2002
    Brandon

    In the new room family room we are building there is no place to put side surrounds unless I put them on stands next to the sitting area (not a popular placement according to the wife). My solution was to put direct firing speakers on the rear wall. I considered putting a pair in the ceiling firing down on either side of the sitting area. I didn't do this because there will be 12 inches of blown in insulation on the ceiling and I did not think the insulation should cover the back of the speaker. If there is no insulation there will be a sizeable area for heat and/or cooling loss. How do you handle in ceiling installations under these circumstances (if you install ceiling speakers)? If there is a way to do this I might consider a 6.1 application. When I first started reading this thread I thought the enclosure idea might work but you have set me straight on that.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
  • billlbbilllb Posts: 59
    edited February 2002
    It's amazing how some people think they know more than manufactures? Quite a few company's are now making their same in-walls with a built in enclosure because of rattles in the wall etc. Remember all homes are not built the same way---some cheap with rattles,some very good with out. I do 500k of work also {joke} One last thing we need to remember...dolby surround,dolby digital,thx,thx ultra,5.1, 7.1 or 10.1 yesterday-today-and tomorrow's technology every thing changes in time my friend.
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited February 2002
    First of all, most in-wall speakers are not infinite baffle designs. No matter how large the box, they are boxed (inwall). Insulation is a GOOD thing. Insulation will help cancel the back wave, and lead to a clearer, more open midrange, and tighter, controlled bass.

    Can you build a makeshift in-wall box? Sure, nothing wrong here. You may however limit your low-bass performance, and the speaker may 'shallow up' a bit. Most people will not notice the difference. Damage a speaker, theoretically, yes, but you would have to reach to the power limits of the speaker with clean, high current power. In 99% of the scenarios, the amp (receiver) being used will begin to clip and distort long before the make-shift enclosure itself can cause damage. (and like Bill said, some inwalls are sealed-back)

    Am I a 'pro', no, and I don't plan to be, however I have wired more inwall systems than I can count on both hands, using everything from Radio Shack to B&W. Never had a rattle in my life.

    Blown or sheet insulation works great, blown can be messy, but I would take an insulated wall over not, anyday. I like to use a 'sheet' of either dynamat, acoustic foam, or a cut piece of eggcrate to place directly behind the speaker. (especially with blown insulation). Most in-wall/ceiling designs have cheap spring clip connectors. I use a silver soldier/heat shrink combo on the speaker wire, with a pin connector, and then heat shrink the connection to the spring clip (after a brief signal test).

    Inwall/ceiling speakers are a sort of crap shoot, but the manufacturers know this, and use drivers which are somewhat forgiving, since the 'box', beit an entire attic, or 3 cu ft in wall, can still sound on par.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • BrandonWBrandonW Posts: 57
    edited February 2002
    Russman, Not sure where you got your info, but mine was direct from the manufacture...omiting the manufacture as this is a POLK forum...Sure some manufactures put a backing on the speakers as the ones I am mentioning, but its to help prevent two mids in the same enclosure from effecting the other one...

    Anyways

    "In the new room family room we are building there is no place to put side surrounds unless I put them on stands next to the sitting area "

    How tall his this room? Speakercraft makes a nifty 'eyeball' speaker designed for home theater use to be mounted in ceiling (as do several manufactures) and they sound pretty good. The eyeball allows you to aim teh driver/tweeters towards your seating location, and they are becoming pretty popular for rooms that have no room on the walls as you ran into...Don't worry about the insulation, it won't hurt a thing, and actually knocks down standing waves inside teh cavity as someone pointed out. Most also have a piece of mesh or grill cloth around the basket to prevent the insulation from getting inside the spider or voice coil.

    Again not sure where Russ is getting his info on teh boxes, but most of these speakers were designed as an infinite baffle setup(much like car speakers) I am sure some of them are not, but the ones I directly deal with are...If they were designed as he indicates the enclosure would have to be sealed, otherwise the response of the driver would change dramatically...last i checked most people dont seal up stud bays...(least very few), nor do most people put and adhesive between teh drywall and the studs.

    Hope this is helpful, and I apologize to anyone that thinks I am trying to be a 'know it all' Just reciting what I have been told...

    Brandon
  • BrandonWBrandonW Posts: 57
    edited February 2002
    Originally posted by billlb
    It's amazing how some people think they know more than manufactures? Quite a few company's are now making their same in-walls with a built in enclosure because of rattles in the wall etc. Remember all homes are not built the same way---some cheap with rattles,some very good with out. I do 500k of work also {joke} One last thing we need to remember...dolby surround,dolby digital,thx,thx ultra,5.1, 7.1 or 10.1 yesterday-today-and tomorrow's technology every thing changes in time my friend.

    Wow...10.1 (trying to fathom where the hell you could put that many speakers) I sure hoep they don't go anywhere with that...=) You are 100% correct some manufactures are goign with sealed backs, but the problems I have seen are tinny bass,and no low end. Obviously I haven't seen/done/used everything under the sun, soo if any of you all have run across any that sound good let me know, as I use them often in sports bars, and Looking for a cheaper alternative to what I am using now.

    ttyl
    Brandon
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited February 2002
    Lets clarify a few things. I could be wrong in this subjective hobby, if you feel so, please elaborate....
    its to help prevent two mids in the same enclosure from effecting the other one

    What two mids? Two mids in the same speaker, in an array, or two mids sharing the same airspace, or box?
    most of these speakers were designed as an infinite baffle setup(much like car speakers)

    Car speakers? Maybe in the rear deck of an old buick. Last I checked, my door panels and trunk at least kept the rain out, so they must be realtively sealed (air tight, no, but not infinite baffle either). Again, any car fanantics feel free to jump in, but isn't an XTC baffle, or Dynamat a big plus on cleaning up sound?
    If they were designed as he indicates the enclosure would have to be sealed, otherwise the response of the driver would change dramatically

    I'm just not following you here, sorry, maybe if I was sober...but what kind of enclosure did I indicate? I don't think indicated any. Driver response? See my first and second paragraphs in my previous post.

    On a side note, to anyone listening, THX SCHMEEHX, you guys should know better....

    Brandon, what brand is it? Doesn't matter that its a Polk forum, give it up, and keep giving your thoughts on it. Might help someone here make a decision, or open up possibilties.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • BrandonWBrandonW Posts: 57
    edited February 2002
    I'm just not following you here, sorry, maybe if I was sober

    (i feel your pain, went to bed at 530AM and was up at 7 for work ARRGGH)

    ..but what kind of enclosure did I indicate? I don't think indicated any. Driver response? See my first and second paragraphs in my previous post.


    (SOOOOOOOOOOOORY heh that would be my bad on that one, crossed you with someone else, sorry bout that, it'll never *hiccup* happen *hiccup* again, of course you know I have my fingers crossed to, and holding a crack pipe in the other))I did have one thing to add about speaker damage, you all relieze its FAR easier to damage a speaker with tooo little power than to much? (kinda off topic, but wanted to put that in there)


    (Most decent inwalls for theaters use two drivers, such as atlantic technology. They have these little back boxes on them to prevent the frequences from one speaker to effect the other one...has to do alot with coupling...if you want gori details I could prolly dig it out of one of my books, but off the top of my head I can't remember it all -=)


    WHo listens to THX anyways =) Dts and DD, my two favs...

    Car speakers? Maybe in the rear deck of an old buick. Last I checked, my door panels and trunk at least kept the rain out, so they must be realtively sealed (air tight, no, but not infinite baffle either). Again, any car fanantics feel free to jump in, but isn't an XTC baffle, or Dynamat a big plus on cleaning up sound?

    Yep surprisingly they are all designed upon an infinite baffle design, mainly because you have nothing to control the cone, be it a tuned port or a sealed box(creating negitive pressure or whatnot) and port controls cone excursion...in a car doo there is nothing to do either...and actually your doors don't keep the rain out, they simply keep it out of the interior(that god for vapor seals) =) every door has drain holes in it (how do i know? i do car stuff part time) =) Yep dynamat (when you use a TON of it) well lower the resonant frequency of the door/metal whatever its attached to, which helps quite a bit(other than you have to use a **** ton of it to do anything)and SUPPOSIDLY it also turns some of the vibration into heat...(not sure if i buy into that one)


    Atlantic Technologies is the one, their system 20's are pretty interesting, inwalls and have the mentioned caps over the back of one of the drivers...

    BTW wahts teh most expensive set of speakers polk sells?

    Brandon

    PS sorry again about that Russ...i reallllllly fubared that one)
  • shackshack Posts: 11,284
    edited February 2002
    Thanks Brandon,

    My ceilings are 8'. Right now I only have a 5.1 receiver but I may buy a 6.1 or 7.1 and the location over the edges of the seating area might be pretty good in place of side surrounds. The eyeballs sound ok but I would like to stay with polks to match the rest of the system. Probably the Ab755s. It seems to me that the rear direct firing speakers along with the downfiring speakers from the ceiling might make a pretty good soundfield. What do you guys think?
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
  • BrandonWBrandonW Posts: 57
    edited February 2002
    Shack,

    My intent wasn't to sway u from polk, I like polk alot! Anyways Yeah for your room it will prolly work just fine, maybe not ideal, but for a multipurpose room really you can't have everything =)

    Just take us some pics and post them when you are done!

    Good luck
    B
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