volume

typonegative911

i got a harmon kardon avr325 that goes from -84 to +5 wear is the one oclock position and what shoiuld i beable to turn it up to.

Mike682

typo,

Your receiver volume knob is not analog so you will not have a one o'clock position (the knob turns 360 degrees). The volume range is dependent upon the output level of your speakers. When you increase the db level for your speakers, the max reading gets lower. Mine goes from -80 to +10 db from the factory, but since I calibrated my speakers individual output level my max volume is +5. This does not mean the volume itself is lower it just means you are reaching max volume at a faster rate because the output level to each speaker is increased.

Tour2ma

Kinda apples and oranges here, but...

For music it does depend on the kind you listen to. But assuming "rock", which tends to have less dynamic range, somewhere in the -30 to -20 area should be the "limit". Rock doesn't give an amp rest like jazz, classical and other genres do.

For DVD movies, as well as more dynamic music, up into the teens may well be safe. The quieter passages give the amp a breather.

Your ears and/or hand should tell you, i.e., when it's loud enough and/or when the AVR is getting a bit too warm. So start low and ease it up...

typonegative911

thanks for the info guys i have polk rti70 main csi40 for the center i usually dont go below 20.

Tour2ma

You're welcome... Mike and I posted almost simultaneously, so luckily we did not contradict each other. :cool:

One point he alluded to is the need to calibrate. Tons of old threads around here on that topic.

Willow

would the average polk speaker be able to handle the sound at high-mid teen volume without damage ??to the speaker

Tour2ma

Certainly it depends on the amp in question and the specific speaker. "Average" power handling across the Polk lines, past and present is not specific enough to address.

But taking type-o's HK 325 as an example, at 50/ 65 wpc, any Polks will handle the power. The question is whether the AVR can supply it.

Amplifier clipping is the enemy and it occurs when an amp reaches its maximum power output before it completes the reproduction of the music signal (sine wave) it is being fed. So instead of delivering a "rounded" sine wave to the speaker(s), it "clips" the top off, delivering more of a Square wave.

The danger arises from the signal artifacts that the amp is incapable of reproducing. They create a high energy, ultrasonic (on the order of 100kHz) "scream" that sets out for the tweeters. The poor tweeters, not knowing any better, try to reproduce the scream. Many die trying.

Clipping can be avoided by reducing the amplitude (you guessed it, volume) of the signal being reproduced. In other words turning your AVR down.

More speakers are damaged by underpowered amps than by overpowered.

Willow

well I was wondering how hard i can push my rti4's with my rxv540...

Mike682

Originally posted by Willow
would the average polk speaker be able to handle the sound at high-mid teen volume without damage ??to the speaker

Like Tour said, the high to mid teen volume can be lower/higher depending on the source (DVD, cable, diff types music, etc.). Slowly turn it up and if you hear distortion turn it down until it sounds more clear. Also, you can usually tell the amp is starting to reach its limit when the sound doesn't sound dynamic anymore...in other words it sounds flat, suggesting that the amp has no more dynamic ability and is being pushed to the limit.

typonegative911

i run a fan on my reciever as soon as it turn on thats a good thing right harmon kardon says the fan will kick on when it need to but i dont believe that.

O'Shag

Typo,

If your receiver tends to run hot then thats a good idea. I'm contemplating the same thing for my Yammie Z9 which does run hot. I hear that the Panasonic DC fans are very low noise. What type of fan are you using?

sowen010599

With my Yammerhammer, it'll run at 0 all day long. The Polks take it fine. I really have no idea how loud they will go. I can't stand any more after I hit about +5. It's still clean and clear at that volume, just painfully loud.

It's distortion that blows speakers. Case in point, a friend of mine bought a pair of RTi38's at CC. He was running some POS Sherwood receiver from Sam's or something. He was so mad when he blew the tweeters of of his new speakers. He said it wasn't even that loud. He got a replacement pair, and blew them too. I talked him in to buying a 4 year old HK 210 I had laying around. Amazing how the speakers held together just fine after that.

The Yammy's got a fan in it that comes on when it needs to. Playing Drumline at 0 for 10 minutes or so will kick the fan on. I can hear it if I mute the reciever, and I can feel the air from it when it's on.

Tour2ma

Originally posted by sowen010599
It's distortion that blows speakers.

Actually clipping is the main culprit. Amplifier distortion sounds bad, but is not normally destructive. As I said above, clipping specifically attacks tweeters and your friend's (like we are going to fall for that old ruse... ) experience bears that out....

Now when a driver is truly overdriven it certainly can be damaged and in the process it distorts the waveform it is trying to reproduce, but that's a physical phenomenon. I seen woofer cones virtually try to fold themselves in half... not a pretty sight.

Edit: And part of painfully loud can be distortion induced...

Tour2ma

Originally posted by Willow
well I was wondering how hard i can push my rti4's with my rxv540...

Sorry missed this...

Your 540 is an 80 wpc AVR (8 ohm)

The RTI4's spec's are:
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Recommended Amplifier Power 20-125 w/channel
Efficiency 89 dB

There are other factors like room size to consider, but you should be able to produce realistic SPL's in the mid-90's fairly easily.

Tour2ma

Originally posted by typonegative911
i run a fan on my reciever as soon as it turn on thats a good thing right harmon kardon says the fan will kick on when it need to but i dont believe that.

Not the easiest call. It is their design, so I'd tend to trust them. There are temperature optimums for SS electronics. Yes, too hot is no good from a degradation standpoint, but too cool is not good from a music reproduction standpoint.

Electronics that have been idle do tend to become more mellow as they "warm up". Running a fan from the get-go will likely delay, if not prevent, your enjoyment of this development...

typonegative911

i dont know what type of fan it is is was in my father in-laws basement its a little sqare one.But is pretty dam powerful loud at first till it gets gone all they running way then you dont hear it i dont believe that the reciever staying cool will hurt the sound of the reciever and i heard the 525 i think thats the model would shut down becuase it would run hott so just a layer a protection i feel for i not sure if they had promblems whith the 325 me.:D

Willow

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Sorry missed this...

Your 540 is an 80 wpc AVR (8 ohm)

The RTI4's spec's are:
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Recommended Amplifier Power 20-125 w/channel
Efficiency 89 dB

There are other factors like room size to consider, but you should be able to produce realistic SPL's in the mid-90's fairly easily.

Thanks.... I do not have an spl...but you mean I should be able to run it hard enough ??!!

F1nut

"i dont believe that the reciever staying cool will hurt the sound of the reciever"

Oh yes it will and if you're using an additional fan to prevent the receiver from going into protection then you are defeating the entire purpose of that safety feature.

O'Shag

F1nut (fellow Formula One fan here - by the way you should check out the TagMcLaren ((Tag Heuer/McLaren Racing)) website www.tagmclaren.com- Their audio gear is brilliant)



See your point, but can't understand how the preformance will be negatively effected by running an external fan to aid cooling and a relatively small external fan will definitely not generate enough of a cooling effect to adversely affect the receiver in anyway. Excessive heat build-up is one of the factors that can lead to component failure.

The fan should be quiet enough where you don't hear any noise or at the very least, just a very faint noise.

sowen010599

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Actually clipping is the main culprit. Amplifier distortion sounds bad, but is not normally destructive. As I said above, clipping specifically attacks tweeters and your friend's (like we are going to fall for that old ruse... ) experience bears that out....

Now when a driver is truly overdriven it certainly can be damaged and in the process it distorts the waveform it is trying to reproduce, but that's a physical phenomenon. I seen woofer cones virtually try to fold themselves in half... not a pretty sight.

Edit: And part of painfully loud can be distortion induced...

It wasn't my Polks, or receiver. I have never had a pair of 38's or a "Sam's Special" receiver. I have also never ever had any sort of problem with any Polk anything, tweeters or otherwise.

Painfully loud: When my eyes start to get blurry along with my RPTV, my eardrums feel like they are being tickled and need to be scratched, you feel the bass in your breath, you feel your hair move with the beat, stuff is falling of the walls at the neighbor's house, to me that's painfully loud.

Tour2ma

O'Shag, what F1's saying is:

An amp that's being overtaxed (read, abused) to the point that it would go into thermal protection mode were it not for the addition of an added external fan, will suffer damage. The added fan is addressing the sympton (heat accumulation) rather than the cause (heat generation).

HBombToo

Good question BTW.

@ -15 on my h/k I read 85 dB spl ant he meater is on C weighting.

I do not go less than that for any extendied period of time. The RS meter just can't take the strain:rolleyes:

HBomb

O'Shag

Tour2ma,

Understood.

Unfortunately, due to the basic design, some receivers (my Z9 included) will run very hot. Granted the internal fan or protection mechanism will engage to force excessive heat out of the chassis, but it is effective to supplement this internal mechanism and limit the frequency of excessive heat build-up. There's not really anything that can be done to change the run-hot characteristic inherent in the design other than to re-architect the heat dissaption component within the chassis, which isn't practical. The external fan is useful to help cool the air in and around the amplifier/heat sink, and also can limit the need for the internal fan to operate so frequently.

If the unit is actually malfunctioning due to excessive heat, then its a bit late for the external fan to help, and time to haul the unit in for repair.

sowen010599

I tried adding some fans a few years ago. Basically, the only thing I got out of it was fan noise, and a bunch of dust packed into the unit. I would go so far as to say that if the manufacturer thought their unit needed fans to run at all times, they would have built it that way.

F1nut

O'Shag,

Tour has really covered the bases on this matter, but I'll shoot my mouth off a little more about it.

Hot is subjective. What one person thinks is hot may only be warm to another. Hot to me is when the amp or receiver is too hot, to the point of burning skin, to hold my hand on the case for any length of time. I'm not familiar with your Yammy, so how hot does it get? As for the matter of heat being a good thing, as Tour stated, amps like to be warm. If one doesn't allow it reach it's designed optimum temperature they are being robbed of the full, rich sound the amp is capable of. I would think as long as your internal fan kicks on when needed that's all that is required.

Now about more important things, always good to meet another F1 fan. What driver or team catches your fancy? I'm a JPM fan, I just wish he had a better car because I know he can beat Shuey. Maybe next year with McLaren.

Those speakers with the F1 logo on them look pretty cool. I wonder how they sound?

typonegative911

i just got offline whithe a harmon kardon represinative and he said running a fan will in know way hurt the performance of the reciever he said it would only help by keeping it cool i dont know were some of you guys think heat is a good thing in a reciever that not true i think anybody that designs them would probably agree less heat is good.

Mike682

typo,

I would trust the fan that is already in the receiver. HK engineers designed it to run a certain way and to turn on when the unit reaches a certain temp. As long as you have proper ventilation (min 6-8" clearance on top) you should not have a problem.

Running an extra fan is your decision. If you do install another fan and turn it on everytime you receiver is on, then, like another poster alluded to, you will have dust accumilation inside the unit very fast.

Tour2ma

Originally posted by typonegative911
i think anybody that designs them would probably agree less heat is good.

Really want your amp to Last? Never, ever turn it on...

Ran a quick search and here's a couple other opinions:
From tweakers:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-40782.html
Interesting notes on the impact of temperature on biasing:
http://sound.westhost.com/jll_hood.htm
Continuously variable fan speed design:
http://www.arx.com.au/MicroDrive.htm

O'Shag

F1,

On your marks, get set, GO!

JPM is definitely very talented. I think he should stay with Williams, they have a great team. Things change from year to year and inevitably one of the big players gains the advantage.

I love all the teams, and I wish some of the laggers would win sometimes. It just would make things more interesting. I was hoping that Nicky Lauda could do some great things for Jaguar/Ford and was sort of routing for Eddy Irvine, but they're still not there yet. If I had to pick an absolute favourit team, as much as I love Ferrari, I'd have to go with McLaren, and I really like Kimi Raikonnen's low key style.

The TagMacLaren audio gear reflects engineering excellence, to be expected given the F1 engineering connections. The processors are among the very best. Those speakers are state-of-art and fantastic by the way, but very pricey just like the whole line. The company was just sold to IAG. Its not easy to compete in the audio world. Trouble is that the McLaren gear was just so good, they couldn't get a big enough market willing to spend this kind of money. They just poured too much money into the enterprise in the beginning. If you are ever lucky enough, grab a piece or two of that gear second hand. Given the fact that its McLaren, my guess is its going to be worth some serious cash in the future.

Shanghai GP tomorrow I think.

F1nut

Originally posted by typonegative911
i dont know were some of you guys think heat is a good thing in a reciever that not true i think anybody that designs them would probably agree less heat is good.

Ok then, using your own logic since you don't want to believe any of us. The designer of your receiver has decided that all it needs is a internal fan (because they didn't install big enough heatsinks) so, why would you doubt them and think running a external fan is a good idea???

Originally posted by typonegative911
harmon kardon says the fan will kick on when it need to but i dont believe that.

So, you'll believe them about one thing, but not the other???

opus

.............and the winner is F1nut.


Logic. A real **** to argue with.