Need a good front firing sub

Doug Montgomery

O.k...my audio rack is going to be a A/Vrack in the wall, with my sub being under it in a boxed in area (see attached picture).

So far from reading it looks like the Velodyne SPL1200 II or the Sunfire Solitare 12.

Are they any other front firing amps that someone could suggest and if not, which one of the above would you suggest?

Thanks,

Doug

gatemplin

Consider having someone like Kyle at www.acoustic-visions.com or Al at www.rawacoustics.ca make you a sub to fit. A sealed Tumult with 500-1000W would be amazing.

Doug Montgomery

I can get the velodyne for $995

http://www.aboutgizmos.com/aboutgizmos/vespii.html

I looked for a plate amp of equal wattage and the cheapest I found was about $500. Add about $200-$400 for a driver, plus assembly of a kit...I would think your over that $995 for the already designed and built Velodyne...what say ye?

Thanks,

Doug

TechLarry

I purchased the Velodyne SPL-1000 Series II. It's really quite wonderful for such a small Sub

In fact, it's _so_ good I now have to go around the house and "sub-proof" the place.

I've got fireplace screens, coffee table glass inserts and (I'm not kidding) dog colors rattling like crazy now!

She really shakes the house. I'm extremely happy with it.

-Larry

Doug Montgomery

$995 good for the SPL 1200?...or you think its low due to a newer model coming out?

THanks

VR3

The tumult or tempest or w/e he suggested will NOT need equal ampage unless you plan to make an extremely small box.

The velodyne uses a small amp to compensate for the small cabinet.

IE - Larger Cabinet = More Effecient and vice verca....

Amp power dosnt really matter, in a subwoofer, the enclosure, amp, and driver all play equally important rolls.

www.adireaudio.com has some woofer you can buy to use (you make enclosure) that have tons of excursion (tons of slam, can move ALOT of air)...

Check em out, you can buy a Tumult I believe for 150 bucks -- and an enclosure wouldnt run more than 80, then you can figure in like a 350 watt amp which would do the job...

How big of a space are we talking exactly?

tryrrthg

The Adire Tumult is $500 and would take quite a bit of power to get the best results. The Adire Tempest is $150 and is a great woofer but requires a big box.

Check out this kit from Parts Express. It should be pretty similar in performance (if not just as good) as the Velodyne. And it's cheaper!

Parts Express Kit

VR3

Is the Tumult that 15" BEAST?? With like 3 inches of excursion?? LOL

tryrrthg

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
Is the Tumult that 15" BEAST?? With like 3 inches of excursion?? LOL

Yes sir! TUMULT

Airplay355

sid,
do u mean the velo uses a large amp to compensate for the small box? if you have a smaller box don't u need more power? like the little sunfire subs with 3000 watt amps?

gatemplin

Originally posted by Airplay355
if you have a smaller box don't u need more power? like the little sunfire subs with 3000 watt amps?

Yep, thats right.

Doug Montgomery

Thanks guys...seems I was not getting email sent to me that peeps posted in here.

I have a Stryke AV15MKII that I was going to use on another project, however I would lilke to keep my enclosure size as small as possible and no bigger than a 18X18 cube.

The Sunfire Solitude 12 seemed sweet (expensive..but it seems to have some nice features)

I ran the AV15 through bassbox and it will work as a sealed, but the low end (F3) was kinda higher than I wanted. I really like the AV15..nice driver. Was thinking of the Parts Express 1000 watt amp with the Av15 in a 18X18 cube?

THanks,

Doug

gatemplin

Was thinking of the Parts Express 1000 watt amp with the Av15 in a 18X18 cube?

Doug,
To get the F3 down you should design a Linkwitz transform. It is an EQ that changes the Q of the system. The downside of the LT is that you need excursion and power, but you have plenty of both. If this interests you there are people that can help you design it at www.diyaudio.com and other sites. John Janowitz may already have an LT design for the AV15.

Doug Montgomery

Thanks..I will look into it. I called John J today and left a message..he hasn't called me back yet.

Doug Montgomery

Is the AV15MKII a 500 watt per voice coil or 500 watts total if the VC's are wired in series (2 ohms per coil, 4 ohms)

Thanks,

Doug

gatemplin

The AV15 is rated at 500W total, so each coil is about half that.

phoneisbusy

Originally posted by gatemplin
Doug,
To get the F3 down you should design a Linkwitz transform. It is an EQ that changes the Q of the system. The downside of the LT is that you need excursion and power, but you have plenty of both. If this interests you there are people that can help you design it at www.diyaudio.com and other sites. John Janowitz may already have an LT design for the AV15.

If he doesn't, it may be worth having a look at:

http://www.marchandelec.com/wm8.html

It might fit the bill. He sells it assembled or you can get one channel as a kit. Phil is been very good about answering my email enquiries.

I think I have other sites which either have boards or sell the circuit. I'm considering the WM8 because it's so adjustable.

Let me know if you'd like me to dig the other sites up.

regards

Dave

Doug Montgomery

Forgive my ignorance, but where would I learn to implement this Linkwitz or Bassis device?

When designing a cabinet...how would I take a Linkwitz into consideration (bassbox 6 Pro)?

Thanks again for all your input.

Doug

phoneisbusy

Originally posted by Doug Montgomery
Forgive my ignorance, but where would I learn to implement this Linkwitz or Bassis device?

When designing a cabinet...how would I take a Linkwitz into consideration (bassbox 6 Pro)?

Thanks again for all your input.

Doug

Hi Doug,

For background, have a look here:

http://sound.westhost.com/linkwitz-transform.htm
Good background and the site has far too many interesting articles.

Rod Elliot sells a linkwitz board. With project 71, there is a spreadsheet that calculates the Q for your sealed box. You then enter the target Q and the sheet will calculate the appropriate values.

If you look at the Bassis page, there's a link to the doc that describes how to configure it. What's really appealing about the kit is you dial in your known Q and the target. Very easy to set up versus other circuits. I'm pretty sure Phil would be happy to answer any detailed questions.

No affil. I'm considering his bassis kit for my own project.

regards

Dave

Toxis

Personally, between the Sunfire and the Velo, you'll be more than happy with either one. If money was no issue, I'd go with the Sunfire because I feel it's a little tighter and cleaner. Not a whole hell of a lot but noticible to me. It's obviously your choice but I'd go Sunfire, unless money was an issue. Then go with the Velo because it's a lil cheaper and still an amazing sub!!

Dr. Spec

It is an EQ that changes the Q of the system.

Technically, if you alter the FR, you are altering Q.

But.....the beauty of the LT is that you can maintain the same Q with respect to the shape of the curve at the corner frequency (i.e., Q = 0.6 or 1.0 or w/e), thereby preserving the sound charactertistics (Q) of the original alignment while extending the response.

The LT requires a shitload of power down low, and extreme excursion capability with low distortion. The Tumult is perfect for this application.

Doug Montgomery

Would it be a good hypothesis that the LT is what Sunfire is using to get down to 16 HZ at 113 db (with room gain..??) with such a small box, not to mention a 2700 watt amp

BTW, you state a **** load of power needed....after reading the LT articles mentioned above, I see what you mean. However, how does tht effect what size amp you CAN use?

I.E., the AV15 has a maximium handling of 500 watts. Now we all know if you have a clean amp (low distortion) and a clean signal, you can easily go past that. But let's say your 2-3 cu ft box had a F3 of 40 HZ with said driver. And could handle the max 500 watts all the way down to the 40 HZ. To go another octave down 20 HZ, it would take 4 times the power yes? So you would need an amp that outputs 2000 watts to get the same level of output that low. Would using a 2000 watt amp possibly damage the driver at freq above the 40 HZ?

THanks,

Doug

TechLarry

Wow. Does it eat small animals ?

-Larry

Originally posted by tryrrthg
Yes sir! TUMULT

TechLarry

That _is_ a really good price for the SPL-1200. The SPL-1000 SII cost me $999 AFTER I talked them down $300 from the normal price.

Then again I don't typically buy big-ticket, subjective items like this via mail/web. I got it from a local authorized dealer, and they were very helpful. This was my second sub. The first I took back because it wasn't large enough for my room.

-Larry

Originally posted by Doug Montgomery
$995 good for the SPL 1200?...or you think its low due to a newer model coming out?

THanks

Dr. Spec

Would it be a good hypothesis that the LT is what Sunfire is using to get down to 16 HZ at 113 db (with room gain..??) with such a small box, not to mention a 2700 watt amp

I'm sure the Sunfire uses some form of EQ to obtain reasonable deep extension. Whether it's an LT or something else, I don't know.

Tuning the PRs deep doesn't help system efficiency any; only larger enclosure volume can do that. That's why it needs such big power.

The Sunfire products suffer from tremendous levels of harmonic distortion in the lowest octaves. That claimed rating (if it can even be believed) of 113 dB at 16 Hz undoubtedly represents the total SPL measured with a 16 Hz sine. I'm sure THD is well over 100% at that point, and the harmonics at 32, 48, 64, etc. Hz are contributing more to the overall SPL than the 16 Hz fundamental.

Measure a Sunfire subwoofer (I don't care which one you pick) and limit harmonic distortion to 10% (the industry standard) and THEN see how much legitimate clean output it has at each frequency. Tom Nousaine and John Johnson have done so in the past, and the test results were quite revealing.

the AV15 has a maximium handling of 500 watts. Now we all know if you have a clean amp (low distortion) and a clean signal, you can easily go past that. But let's say your 2-3 cu ft box had a F3 of 40 HZ with said driver. And could handle the max 500 watts all the way down to the 40 HZ. To go another octave down 20 HZ, it would take 4 times the power yes? So you would need an amp that outputs 2000 watts to get the same level of output that low. Would using a 2000 watt amp possibly damage the driver at freq above the 40 HZ?

With respect to thermal limits, the voice coil doesn't know what frequency you are playing. So yes, you could could certainly cook the VC in about 2 seconds with 2000 watts of power going into an AV-15 with a 40 Hz sine.

With that said, naturally the deepest frequencies will be the limiting factor in a sealed LT design, since they will require the most power to achieve the same SPL as the higher frequencies.

Typically, the sealed LT will fry before it bottoms out, since the motor strength required to fight the air spring in the enclosure is just huge. And Tumults HAVE been fried this way, well before they bottomed or showed any audible signs of distress. When Adire lists the Pe in continuous watts, they aren't bullshitting.

Doc

Strong Bad

Look...just tell my good friend Doug to screw the inwall sub and buy an SVS PB2-Ultra.

For goodness sake man...PRIORITIES!!!!

Who luvs ya baby!


John

Larry Chanin

Hi Doug,

Here's a link to a retailer selling a Sunfire True Architechtural Subwoofer.

I believe it was the predecessor to the Solitare series. This particular Architectural is the smaller size, 11" cube. Sunfire also made a 13" cube also specifically desiged for cabinet installations.

Carver also made the Knight Shadow Subwoofer. It is identical to the 11" Architechtural except it's amp is rated only at 500 watts. I bought one for about $650 new. I've been looking for a second, either new or used, but so far I've been unsuccessful in locating one.

Larry

Lowell_M

Velodyne subs are amazing. nuf said.

Doug Montgomery

Well after alot of thought and alot of late night reading and great responses from all over the world. I've decided for my application the IB Sub would be best.

Gonna use 4 AV15's and a Crown K2 amp. It's gonna be next summer before the house is framed and ready for me...will keep you all posted.

Doug

tryrrthg

Originally posted by Doug Montgomery
Well after alot of thought and alot of late night reading and great responses from all over the world. I've decided for my application the IB Sub would be best.

Gonna use 4 AV15's and a Crown K2 amp. It's gonna be next summer before the house is framed and ready for me...will keep you all posted.

Doug

If you haven't seen it already make sure you check out the Cult of the Infinitly baffled that is a great source for anything IB. You'll have one fantastic sub!

Doug Montgomery

LOL..been there...thanks. If you go there...you'll see I've posted quite abit. That Tom W is a huge resource.

Thanks again.

Doug