Best preamp for the $$

gregure

I know by now many of you are just thinking: Just buy something already!!! I've been talking about it for so long. I've decided to stick w/ my current speakers for now. I'm a little disappointed w/ my Rti's after awhile, but I'm hoping upgrading to separates will help me hold back on replacing the speakers for a good while. I'd really like to put the money into a good preamp/amp combo before going through the whole speaker process. I'm considering my options, and it is difficult because I don't have a lot of access to many different brands. One of these days I'll just spend a weekend going all over the Bay Area to do some test listens. Plus, there is a big A/V show in San Francisco in November, which I hope will provide a good opportunity to listen to some good stuff. Currently, I was looking at spending between $1500-$2500 on a preamp, and I'm pretty much decided on getting an Outlaw 770 amp. It seems to be the best way to go for the money. I'm not opposed to going w/ the Outlaw 950, but there are a few compromises w/ that unit, and I really want excellent sound processing. I'd like not to have to do this again for a good long while.

So, my question would be: what's a good preamp that isn't too expensive that would mate well w/ the Outlaw amp? So far, I've looked at Cary Audio Cinema 6, NAD T163, Adcom 880, and I browsed Audiogon and Ebay for some good used units but they are both pretty dry right now. I'd be willing to look at Sunfire used, but a Theater Grand for $2500 is probably asking for too much. Obvously a new Sunfire or Theta or something of that caliber is way out of my price range. I'd be open to suggestions for another kind of amp w/in the $2000 range, new or used, that would be good. Is it bad to mix brands, are there inconsistencies in the sound production, or is it better to go with the best of both worlds, rather than strictly going w/ the same brand for both units? Again, I will finally be making this plunge buy in January or February, so I have a good deal of time to do some research before going for it. I'm not in the position to buy now, so current auctions would not be a help beyond research purposes. Thanks guys.

Frank Z

Pick up a copy of the latest HomeTheater mag and check out the new Cary Cinema 6 preamp. List is $2500 so you should be able to get a street price around $2k.

gregure

Actually, I read the same review in HT magazine, which is part of the reason I'm considering the Cary. Of course, a listening test will be needed to make sure on a purchase like that.

Frank Z

Just re-read your post and saw it listed, sorry about that. It sure looks interesting.

pjdami

Don't forget to check into the B&K Ref 50 preamp. Right in your price range of $2,000 new and even less used.

The Outlaw amp is probably your best bang for the buck as you have already discovered.

As far as mixing and matching, people do it all the time. You may want to research into the gain outputs of the pres and inputs on the amps (compare the gain output on the Outlaw 950 to other pres you may be considering).

PolkWannabie

Gregure ...

I got my Sunfire TG IV NIB from an authorized dealer on eBay.

They can be found ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14978&item=5713045863&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14978&item=5713739967&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14974&item=5704474807

TheGrayGhost

Here is an excellent Preamp/Processor within your price range (MSRP $1500, Street around $1250).

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/prod_p965.html

The Sherwood Newcastle P-965 has many modern features and can be upgraded by the user through the USB or RS-232 Serial ports. The USB port will also accept stereo audio from a computer USB port.

Sherwood recently released the first firmware upgrade that added RS-232 Control Protocol for home theater controllers like Crestron (and others), added a sleep timer to the OSD, added 6 frames of audio delay for A/V Sync control, fixed minor bugs in the software.

The second firmware upgrade will add auto speaker setup using a microphone provided by Sherwood and the third upgrade will add parametric EQ. I’ve requested that Sherwood add a user option to the auto EQ that would limit (when set) to a frequency below 200 Hz so that the P-965 Pre/Pro can be used like a BFD to EQ the subwoofer channel.

Phil Dawson

The B&K Ref 50 can be purchased new on the net for just under $1500. At that price it is a steal.
Good Luck, Phil

gregure

Thanks for the leads guys. I really think the Sunfire is just more than I need, even regarding the obtainable price. I'm sure the B&K is great, too, and for $1500 that really seems like a steal, however I've read a few reviews online that complain of the Ref 50 failing to produce excellent music playback. I'd like to go w/ something that is good for music and HT, at least as far as that goes. The Cary seems to offer that, and some of the reviews I've read of NAD are very favorable as well. Are the reviews of the B&K off kilter, or are they more geared toward HT? My only experience was a test w/ a B&K 505, which seemed great for movies, but then when they put in some classical, the higher end really seemed muddy and congested. And this was on both Def Tech and Vienna Acoustics. Granted, the receiver is not as good as separates, but it only served to reinforce the better for HT opinions I'd already read. What do you guys think, Cary vs. NAD vs Outlaw?

gregure

Originally posted by pjdami
As far as mixing and matching, people do it all the time. You may want to research into the gain outputs of the pres and inputs on the amps (compare the gain output on the Outlaw 950 to other pres you may be considering).

I looked up the specs on Outlaw, but I really have no clue what this means. Could someone "throw me a frickin' bone here" and 'splain to me what gain means, and what I should look for when trying to match mixed brand separates. Thanks.

gregure

Well, I'm a little better off, narrowing down my search. After looking up the B&K, I again found some reviews complaining of its performance w/ music, and the fact that you have to choose b/w 5.1 or 7.1 blows. I'm using a 6.1 setup now, which I'd like to keep, considering DVD-A is 6.1. Both the Outlaw and Cary allow for switching b/w 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1, which I really like. Plus they have better bass management than the NAD 163's global bm. I'm still not ruling the NAD out, but I think I'm really leaning toward Outlaw or Cary. The Outlaw seems to be the way to go, especially on a limited budget, but I'm not so keen on the reportedly shoddy tuner, and the Cary, although a great deal more expensive, really looks like a solid, quality piece of equipment. I'll keep reading, and go to that HT convention in S.F. in November, and finally start to hone in on my final purchase. Again, thanks for the suggestions and leads.

pjdami

Gregure,

The Cary certainly is an interesting piece of gear. I never realized they made this piece. They are well known for their tube amps and tube preamps in the two channel world. How many beans for this one by the way?

As far as the gain goes, like I said many people mix and match. You just don't want to get caught with an amp with a high input gain and a preamp with a high gain at the same time. What would happen then is that at say 9:00 on the volume level you would be maxed out in output with distortion / clipping with any further volume increase.

I think you are safe with the Outlaw amp with an input gain of 28 db which isn't too high and friendly to most of the preamps out there. This is a much more complicated issue though if one really wants to "nail" it as input sensitivity comes into play as well for matching. Probably not an issue though like I said. The preout on the Outlaw 950 is 1.0 V with a max of 6.3 V while the Cary is rated at 1.0 V with a max of 8.0 V. The input sensitivity of the Outlaw 770 is 1.43 V for full output at its rated 200 W. This is certainly an interesting audio topic though. There is also a logarithmic formula that converts input / output voltages into db but I would have to do some research into how to use that equation. Others are free to shoot arrows into this logic as I'm no electronics expert here.

The B&K Ref 50, like my AVR 317 receiver, has a menu option to select one surround back channel if one so desires, so I don't understand the 5.1 or 7.1 only that you have mentioned. I like the sound of B&K products. It tends to be more on the mellower / warm side though but it mates well with the listening environment I have in my living room. It could very well be that you like something with more attack like the Outlaw or a Rotel preamp would have. One more thing about the B&K receiver you listened to... was it on for at least 10 to 15 minutes? I have found that the gear sounds much better after being on for 15 minutes or so. Sounds kind of thin when you first turn it on.

Outlaw is supposed to be coming out with a new pre to replace the 950 in the near future. You may want to research into this.

Good luck.
Paul

gregure

Pjdami,
Thanks for the input. To answer your first question, the Cary Cinema 6 has an MSRP of $2500. The Cary's aren't to be found on online stores, so you're dealing w/ private dealers for that unit I think. Doesn't leave much room for a good street price I'm afriad, but then I don't know all the avenues to search. It is a new product, as the only available review is the current issue of Home Theater Magazine. They give it a 94/100, I believe.
As for my confusion about the B&K, I thought it was strange that it didn't have switching for 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 (which it does), but I looked at the info on the B&K site, and it didn't mention that option. Furthermore, for the Outlaw, Cary and NAD, that was always listed as a feature. I also read a couple of reviews that only mentioned 5.1 or 7.1 options, although I should have figured that the unit has a feature which asks for how many rear surrounds one has. So, there lies the misunderstanding you were curious about. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess the B&K is back on the list. :mad: It's so hard to narrow it down. I really do think I may have to remove the Cary Cinema 6 from my wishlist though. I'm trying to get a good system, but I'm trying to be practical w/ the costs. The Cary looks really nice, but I'm sure I would be very happy with an Outlaw or B&k. I'm sure my untrained ears will not be unsatisfied with a move from an Onkyo 701 to decent entry-level separates. I know the B&K goes for $1500 on some sites, which makes it very appealing indeed.