LSi Impressions

brody05

If an amp or reciever is running a pair of speakers regardless of load and it has overload protective circuits such as Denon and it is not cutting out then it makes sense to me that it is running within it's limits therefore can handel the load asked of it.

My Denon amp is rated to 310 w at 4 ohm (acva1se - same as the US 5800), I know it has limits as it is not as high current as seperates but in saying that people have a preference for brands and I have my own, having run Polks with Plynius, Parasound and NAD I have found that the Denon holds its own very well indeed and blends well with the Polk speakers providing a 'warm' sound which is how I like it as opposed to the often too 'bright' sound associated with Plynius ect. If audiophile sound is what you want then go with seperates or tube/valve amps but we are all here as we own or like Polk aren't we, a far cry from 'audiophile' but hey I love the way the sound, even with a Denon.

PS, I agree with the very last part of the above post re the attitude, and not just from this thread. I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I think there is 'contenuity' beginning to become apparent......

marcpam

Originally posted by brody05
If an amp or reciever is running a pair of speakers regardless of load and it has overload protective circuits such as Denon and it is not cutting out then it makes sense to me that it is running within it's limits therefore can handel the load asked of it.

My Denon amp is rated to 310 w at 4 ohm (acva1se - same as the US 5800), I know it has limits as it is not as high current as seperates but in saying that people have a preference for brands and I have my own, having run Polks with Plynius, Parasound and NAD I have found that the Denon holds its own very well indeed and blends well with the Polk speakers providing a 'warm' sound which is how I like it as opposed to the often too 'bright' sound associated with Plynius ect. If audiophile sound is what you want then go with seperates or tube/valve amps but we are all here as we own or like Polk aren't we, a far cry from 'audiophile' but hey I love the way the sound, even with a Denon.

PS, I agree with the very last part of the above post re the attitude, and not just from this thread. I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I think there is 'contenuity' beginning to become apparent......

You are saying if your receiver/amp has overload protective circuits then it is ok to drive a 4 ohm or even 2 ohm with it. The specs on a Denon is rated at 6 ohm and up for a reason. Example: a car has a rev limiter that will prevent the engine to overheat, but if you continuously hit the rev limit than your engine will not last very long. Therefore, if you trip the overload protection too often you can risk the damage and overheating of your new 6000 dollar Denon 5805.

P.S. if you don't like any constructive critisizm, or what YOU call attitude, then i suggest you keep reading this thread without posting.

F1nut

You sir, are out of line!

If you can't understand that, then look at how many folks here are saying it to you.

marcpam

Originally posted by F1nut
You sir, are out of line!

If you can't understand that, then look at how many folks here are saying it to you.

Are you telling me it is ok for someone to continuously drive a 4 ohm speaker with a denon receiver and not ever overheat it in anyway? Last time I checked with Denon support they were deadset against it. I will take their word for it, not someone with 100 posts in their lifetime. You sir, are even more out of line for coming in here and not posting any comment support for all of the folks who disagree?!? You give me one hard fact of a Denon supporting a 4 ohm load for a long period of time. Tell me why it is that most people use the Denon preamp portion and turn around and buy a dedicated amp. Could it be that Denon can't run any speakers but 8 ohm? You guys are bad debaters, coming in here telling me that everybody disagrees, but as I went through the 2 pages, only 2-3 are blind to this fact. Come on and wake up.

F1nut

Marcpam,

I actually agree with the fact that a receiver/amp, not rated to drive a 4 ohm load, isn't a good idea to use with a speaker rated at 4 ohms. What I was addressing was the attitude, not the subject. Come on and smell the coffee.

Cheers,
F1

marcpam

I agree that I tend to vocal my points very strongly. They are not in anyway intended to put down or demoralize anybody. If I come off as having an attitude, I apologize. I have had people in the past, take personal attacks at me because they don't agree with what I am saying, but I don't retaliate by rolling in the mud with them. I am just voicing my OPINION, and everybody reading this thread can take it for what it is worth, a point well take or a point fabricated.

amulford

I'm sorry, but there is only one home theater receiver I know of that will probably do the LSi line justice. Frank called it earlier. The Sunfire's specs, which are acurrate, should tell you. 7 channels of amplification, 200 WPC at eight ohm load, 400 WPC at Four ohm load, all channels driven, 20 Hz - 20000 Khz, with no more than 0.5% THD.

The problem with it is it's price.

Denon's do not take kindly to driving 4 ohm loads, if you are trying to DRIVE the speakers. I have experience with this, I'm not talking hearsay. They WILL cook.

just my .02.

Dr. Spec

Denon makes a HELLA pre/pro section in their AVRs. That's where they sink all their money. Take a look at the DACs and the DSP chipset and you won't find better in that price range or even considerably higher.

In fact some people prefer the sound of the Denon/Outlaw combo over the Outlaw/Outlaw combo (refer to a recent thread on this subject with the 3805).

The Denon amp section definitely falls short for anything but 8 ohm loads driven on small (and then it's just fine). I wouldn't think of driving my LSi with the 3803. The M200 at 300 continuous (verified independently for 1 hour into 4 ohms) drives them effortlessly.

brody05

I am saying that if an amp is running speakers within its limits and not tripping out from distortion or current draw then it is operating within its capabilities.... I have had Lsi running off the Denon and gave them a good ol thrashing and encounted no problems.
The manual on my Denon amp has been rated by them at as stated before 310w at 4 ohm, it is on the specs page, sure it is not designed for it as well as others but as I say if it is being used within its capabilities then whats the prob? Of course this may differ with lower spec Denons.

Yes a car is the same, a rev limiter is the SAFE limit for the car, it can handel more than its limiter is set and you can ping off the limiter and thrash the **** out of an engine and only cause wear and tear, you will not blow it from sitting on the limiter, so thanks for making my point, I have a 5.7 litre GTS that is limited to 5800 rpm and beleive me it will rev higher than that without causing damage, how do I know, 'modifications'.

I find it funny that people rate others by how many posts they have had, just because I haven't been aware of this forum (from NZ) up until a few months ago doesn't mean I understand less than others, nor does it state how long or what my affiliation with HT is, which by the way is fairly extensive for someone that say has only 100 posts.

THis is not a 'debate' as you put it, and personally I find a lot of how you 'make your point' offensive, and I dont think I am the only one. You like others are passionate for HT and I would imagine Polk Audio as well but just calm down a bit ey. I dont have to have more than 100 posts to be able to make this observation, I find life experiance has qualified me for that.
Brody

brettw22

Originally posted by brody05
I find it funny that people rate others by how many posts they have had, just because I haven't been aware of this forum (from NZ) up until a few months ago doesn't mean I understand less than others, nor does it state how long or what my affiliation with HT is, which by the way is fairly extensive for someone that say has only 100 posts.

I agree with you Brody.....what's humorous is he was blasting people that only had 100 posts and he's sittin at a whopping 70......go him.......lol

marcpam

Originally posted by brettw22
I agree with you Brody.....what's humorous is he was blasting people that only had 100 posts and he's sittin at a whopping 70......go him.......lol

If you don't know how to add a meaningful post into this thread then we don't want to hear it. It is people like you who has 2-3000 posts, who I bet, half is comments like this. You sir, need to get a life. You are the type of person who drives other members to go elsewhere because of your useless comments. I think I have made my point on this thread as well as others, I am not going to entertain somebody with your high intellect.

keith allen

Let me throw in my two cents worth,I own no high end,just pretty good mid grade I guess...now I push my RTi8's(8ohm),and MMG's4ohm) with a 2 channel Denon dra685 reciever,and Im here to tell you it has no trouble handling the maggies,now my previous receiver an Onkyo tx8511,could push 4 ohm speakers,but it could not sustain the power to drive them effiently,the reciever got very hot...also it had switch on the back for 4 ohm mode...not a good thing...now the Denon...no problem and there is one other receiver that can handle 4 ohm speakers,NAD c740...now Im no audiophile,but I did stay in a Holiday Inn express last night:D

Dr. Spec

if an amp is running speakers within its limits and not tripping out from distortion or current draw then it is operating within its capabilities

Agreed.

But do you know the actual (not manufacturer rated) continuous power output of the Denon into a 4 ohm load with all channels driven at the rated THD?

The 3803 and 3805 can push about 20 watts per channel under these conditions. There was a recent thread over at AVS on this exact subject; check it out - pretty informative stuff.

The new 5.7 Pontiac is a bitchin' car, BTW. (thumbs up) The reason it was limited to 5800 rpm at the factory is because that engine speed is slightly past the horsepower peak. The load on the reciprocating mass (crankshaft, bearing, con-rods) increases geometrically as engine speed goes beyond the horsepower peak. Modify the engine, shift the horsepower peak a bit higher, and the engine will tolerate more rpm. Eventually valve float will become an issue, but that doesn't occur until around 6800 rpm with the 5.7 Chevy.

marcpam

Valve float would not be a problem if you were to upgrade the valvetrain. You would then be able to obtain a higher rpm. In an overhead cam situation you can upgrade and obtain stiffer valve springs and therefore use a more aggresive cam which will inturn supply you with higher lift and duration, and furthermore give you a greater intake of air and exhaust gases. You could further build the bottom end with higher compression pistons, say 11:1 dome tops, and resleeve the block and shave the deck to raise the compression even more, as well as shotpeening the rods for durability (or buy aftermarket ones). This will allow the pistons to become closer to the valve tips and give you more compression. Oh yea, you can also port and polish the heads for better flow. If you do all this, you will have one hell of a Denon.

brettw22

Originally posted by marcpam
If you don't know how to add a meaningful post into this thread then we don't want to hear it. It is people like you who has 2-3000 posts, who I bet, half is comments like this. You sir, need to get a life. You are the type of person who drives other members to go elsewhere because of your useless comments. I think I have made my point on this thread as well as others, I am not going to entertain somebody with your high intellect.

marc.....might I suggest a slight loosening of the wedgie...

I was just laughing because of the irony in your comment where you could indicate that someone with less than 100 posts couldn't know what they're talking about when you have 70......it's funny, and I bet if that wedgie gets loosened up that wedgie you'd find humor in it too....wait.......hold on......ok.....here's a little winkie to make you feel all good about it.....;)

p.s. you do still have an attitude, and we dont' play nice with people and their know it all attitudes......;)

marcpam

Originally posted by brettw22
marc.....might I suggest a slight loosening of the wedgie...

I was just laughing because of the irony in your comment where you could indicate that someone with less than 100 posts couldn't know what they're talking about when you have 70......it's funny, and I bet if that wedgie gets loosened up that wedgie you'd find humor in it too....wait.......hold on......ok.....here's a little winkie to make you feel all good about it.....;)

p.s. you do still have an attitude, and we dont' play nice with people and their know it all attitudes......;)

I won't entertain you, sorry. If you read my posts, I apoligized for coming off too harshly. You can take it for what it's worth. Sorry I couldn't make this more interesting. Could I trouble you to bare hand my wedgie out of my manly **** crack?

brody05

Doc,
The car is the Australia/NZ version, it is a GMH (general motors holden), it has the same gen III chev but is called a holden SS commodore, have included (or tried to, hope it works) a picture so you guys can see what cars look like over here.

Um in regards to the Denon thing, I only know about the 5800 or NZ equivalent of and it doesn't have THD figures next to it (manufacturer ones anyway). What is AVS???? forgive my ignorance but we don't know about a lot of the sites you guys use.

That sounds like a lot of work for little gains really, I reckon a supercharger would be better, actually puts power up to over 450KW, for around $8K (NZ). hmmmm........dribbling.........
PS. Dont want too much compression, cant buy aviation fuel as easily as 96pulp, high compresion.....ping.....ping......ping....Bang, goodbye motor.:p

brody05

try again

Sami

Originally posted by brody05
That sounds like a lot of work for little gains really, I reckon a supercharger would be better, actually puts power up to over 450KW, for around $8K (NZ). hmmmm........dribbling.........
PS. Dont want too much compression, cant buy aviation fuel as easily as 96pulp, high compresion.....ping.....ping......ping....Bang, goodbye motor.:p

Nah, just get a GT-R.

marcpam

Originally posted by brody05
try again

Nice car. By the way, what is the highest octane available out of the pump over there?

brody05

Thanks,
91 or 96 (basically 91 with aromatics added to raise the actane rating).
I had an older 350 chev in another classic 72 holden that had a worked motor and the 'bits' out the top of the bonnet, it had a compression rating of 10.5 : 1 and unfortuanately damaged the motor from too low octane (even with a booster), after that ran it on AV gas 104 to 116 octane and it was great but they made it very difficult to buy as you needed a race license to buy it and not meant to use it on a street car on the road, but hey, laws are made to be broken ey.
These newer ones are so much better though, too many complexities for me to understand.

Is the GT - R that twin turbo nissan thing???

I just like the sound of a V8 and with the 6 speed manual and rear wheel drive behind it, lots a fun if you know what I mean.

Sorry for straying off the HT line, I love my cars too, what can I say......:D

marcpam

Originally posted by brody05
Thanks,
91 or 96 (basically 91 with aromatics added to raise the actane rating).
I had an older 350 chev in another classic 72 holden that had a worked motor and the 'bits' out the top of the bonnet, it had a compression rating of 10.5 : 1 and unfortuanately damaged the motor from too low octane (even with a booster), after that ran it on AV gas 104 to 116 octane and it was great but they made it very difficult to buy as you needed a race license to buy it and not meant to use it on a street car on the road, but hey, laws are made to be broken ey.
These newer ones are so much better though, too many complexities for me to understand.

Is the GT - R that twin turbo nissan thing???

I just like the sound of a V8 and with the 6 speed manual and rear wheel drive behind it, lots a fun if you know what I mean.

Sorry for straying off the HT line, I love my cars too, what can I say......:D

he is referring to the Nissan Skyline GTR. It is a twin turbo straight six. It is the same motors found in the Toyota Supras, the only diff. is that they are tweaked over and beyond the Supra's capabilities.

Sami

Originally posted by marcpam
he is referring to the Nissan Skyline GTR. It is a twin turbo straight six. It is the same motors found in the Toyota Supras, the only diff. is that they are tweaked over and beyond the Supra's capabilities.

Actually they are quite different in design. Both are inline 6's with twin turbos and are capable of lots of hp. Mine is around 500 horses at the moment. As Brody is in NZ, they can be had quite cheap and are quite a lot more fun than the GM's. Isn't the GTS based on Vectra? They can't be of the Omega platform, can they?

brody05

No, the commodore is not based on the Vectra, we have those here too but they are quite a bit smaller and a much cheaper version and they certainly dont have the 5.7 litre alloy V8 chev engines, not really even close to being in the same class, ie the vectra is less than half of the SS new list price.

The Holden Commodores are designed and built in Australia, they use the Chev engines with Holden engine management and running gear. They come in a V6 quad cam engine (built in Australia) as well that puts out 190KW.

I think the 2 door coupe 'cousin' of my SS is being marketed in the states as a GTO??? maybe GTS??? I think it has the GM badge on it, I know it has 300KW and even though the weight on it is 1500kg it does the quater mile in 13.2 secs standard, not bad for factory production car but I'm sure there are plenty more grunt machines over there. Is the Pontiac GM??? maybe they are the same, ie the 2 door coupe????

Dont know what the omega platform is sorry.

PS. one HP equals 2/3 KW, so 100HP is the same as 66KW, thats how the power is rated here.

Sami

Originally posted by brody05
I think the 2 door coupe 'cousin' of my SS is being marketed in the states as a GTO???

Yes, the Pontiac GTO is based on the HSV model.

Originally posted by brody05
Dont know what the omega platform is sorry.

It's the Opel model step up from Vectra. I would think the GTS is somewhere in between the Vectra and Omega but actually built in the same platform as the Vectra is.

I think Holden is selling the Omega platform as Commodore (an old Opel name) but I am not 100% sure.

Originally posted by brody05
PS. one HP equals 2/3 KW, so 100HP is the same as 66KW, thats how the power is rated here.

Actually it is closer to 3/4. 100hp ~ 75kW. 1000Nm ~ 738lb-ft.

cdubya

1kw = 1.341 hp, read it somewhere cant remember where.

brody05

I am not sure what the Vectra is over there but the GTS ect in comparison to the Vectra here is like a comparing a Corvette to a mini.

The Vectra here is a small sized 4 door or hatch back, has a 4 cylinder engine and is nearly a full meter shorter in length than the Commodore. Holden in australia is a subsidary of GM in the US, all they did was add an H to the end for general motors holden. Vectra from what I understand is from Opel ? Europe...

I had a look at the omega on the internet and would rate the GTS well above the omega. Maybe I am missing something but if the Pontiac GTO is the US version of the GTS.......
Just had a look, the Pontiac GTO is a lower spec model of the GTS but otherwise the same, actually rated the same as my SS but with two doors instead of four, put simply the GTO basically is the commodore with the same motor, running gear ect, just been converted to left hand drive.

Thanks for the correction on the HP vs KW, I knew it was somewhere around there but the difference may be due to where the horsepower is rated, ie at the wheels or at the motor, BHP vs HP.....which I think can make a 10% (if not more) diff....

I apolygise for car stuff 'taking over' the thread, I mean no disrespect to others on this thread......

Sami

Originally posted by brody05
I am not sure what the Vectra is over there but the GTS ect in comparison to the Vectra here is like a comparing a Corvette to a mini.

No Vectras here at all. Commodore is here in form of Cadillac Catera. Vectra would have been the best platform for performance car IMO because of its size. Maybe I have then mistaken the GTS, it's in the M5 class rather than in M3 class. If that's the case then it is definately based on the Omega platform which is the same as Commodore.

Originally posted by brody05
Vectra from what I understand is from Opel ?

Opel Vectra ~ Holden Vectra
Opel Omega ~ Holden Commodore

Basically Opel = Vauxhall ~ Holden. Even some of the new SAAB's share the same platform with Opel's. They are all GM cars.

Originally posted by brody05
I had a look at the omega on the internet and would rate the GTS well above the omega.

I don't think there a new souped-up Omega but there is Lotus Carlton of the older chassis. I think that would be closest to GTS that GM Europe has to offer.

Originally posted by brody05
Thanks for the correction on the HP vs KW, I knew it was somewhere around there but the difference may be due to where the horsepower is rated, ie at the wheels or at the motor, BHP vs HP.....which I think can make a 10% (if not more) diff....

That wouldn't make any difference as drivetrain loss is the same % for either kW or hp. Kilowatt is just a different unit that replaces the ancient horsepower. The ratio is still the same.

brody05

______________________________________________

That wouldn't make any difference as drivetrain loss is the same % for either kW or hp. Kilowatt is just a different unit that replaces the ancient horsepower. The ratio is still the same.
______________________________________________

Yes the loss is the same, what I am meaning is BHP is taken at the wheels after drivetrain loss as opposed to HP at the motor.....
Anyway, it matters not.

The Vectra is a small car and yes would make a good performance car with a 5.7 litre in it (if you could squeeze it in) but the whole Commodore thing is 'family' car orientated, they just throw big motors and sports handling so the man can still buy the 'family' car and keep the mrs happy, to be honest the whole small sports type car has never really taken off here as opposed to the larger type.

I have looked and just cant find the Commodore being based on an Omega. From what I understand of the commodore range is that they have been around for 24 years and have always been designed and built in Australia for Australian roads (bumpy, winding ect), I cant say any more than that.

Regardless, the SS I got goes very well and is rated very highly over here in both performance and handling. I like the look of it and it is quite big dimension wise, but that ladies and gentalmen is a commodore....lots of leg room, great for towing the heavy boats ect and plenty enough grunt to light up both wheels at 80kmph.:cool:

Dr. Spec

AVS is another forum, based on Rochester, New York. It has a huge following. www.avsforum.com

If you hunt around in there with the right search terms, you'll find that thread on Denon AVR's and 4 ohm loads, including hotlinks to the independent test results.