Carlos Kleiber passed away

[Deleted User]

Hello,
Anybody have any recordings with Carlos Kleiber conducting? Organ, how about you? He must have been a very interesting person.
Ken

John K.

Yes, Ken, he was a very highly-regarded conductor who made relatively few recordings considering his fame and the length of his career. The one I have which is an outstanding bargain for someone who likes the works is his coupling of the Beethoven 5th and 7th symphonies on Deutsche Grammophon 447 400(also now available on a multi-channel SACD).

[Deleted User]

Hey John,
Now a second reason to get an SACD player! Carl Kleiber and R.L. Burnside on SACD is definitely a reason.
Thanks for the recommendation. All of the newspaper and online articles comment on how selective he was in what he conducted. He required really long rehearsals and tried to convey the feeling behind the composer's work. He described some section of music as, "the sound of a mother trying to persuade her child to move away from the toy store window". Then in the middle of a recording session he just left, saying he wanted to go for a ride in the country. And once he played a concert series, in Brazil, accepting an expensive car as payment.
People would lineup, days in advance, to buy tickets to his concerts knowing there was a chance he wouldn't conduct. Just the chance to hear him was enough. I'm definitely going to hear some of his music, I think I might have some of his recordings in my collection.
Ken

[Deleted User]

Of course, I meant "Carlos" not "Carl".

gregure

Kleiber was really a magnificent conductor. Full of fire and passion. Too bad he made so few recordings. Many of the ones that are available don't hold a candle to his live performances. There is a recording of Verdi's Otello, made live at La Scala w/ Domingo, Freni, etc. w/ Kleiber conducting. The recording is a horrid mono one, sounding shrill and congested, but it still at least gives a glimpse of the overwhelming power and fire this man elicited from his performers. What a performance. I'd give anything to travel back in time to see it live in La Scala. What's even more baffling, is that this mono recording is from the late 70's. Unforgivable.

RuSsMaN

His cookies aren't too bad.

Oldwriter

Gentlemen:
Always sad when yet another of "the Greats" passes on. Yet just a bit of his work is being "brought back" in SACD form. To the credit of Sony/Phlips et al who embrace that format!
This is the reason I'm going the SACD route, instead of DVD-A, and I intend to continue to stock up on SACDs - until the Doomsday comes when somebody "up there" in recording la-la land says that DVD-A lives, and SACD dies. Hope not!
Anyway - yes - Maestro Kleiber was a not-well-remembered giant, and I pause in honor of his talent.
Respectfully, Larry R.

Oldwriter

Gentlemen: this from one of the reviews of Kleiber's Beethoven 5th/7th - on DG - a part of a review on Amazon.

The Vienna Philharmonic, from this reviewer's experience, IS incapable of a bad performance. But unfortunately it isn't incapable of a boring one. Except, that is, when Carlos Kleiber is the maestro. There is a discipline and attention to minute detail, and a white-hot intensity to these performances that is extremely rare and extremely precious.

These same performances were also video taped for television presentation. One could see that these musicians were on a mission, delivering their absolute all with such commitment as to belie the fact that these same players could (and under lesser conductors probably have) sleepwalk through these warhorses. The audience, to a person, was absolutely rapt - thoroughly transported to that sublime space that on this earth only the greatest art can accomplish. And on CD, without that added visual input, these qualities still come through - an even rarer thing indeed. This is NOT a recording one puts on in the background while "multi-tasking" one's way through household chores. It deserves, COMMANDS, one's undivided attention.
So PLEASE! Buy this recording, no matter how many other recordings you may already have of these symphonies.

BUT...

Be aware that these recordings were made in the late 1970's, in Vienna's famous Musikvereinsaal. While the live acoustics of this venue are wonderful, it is a difficult hall in which to satisfactorily record. Recordings from there often sound dry and shrill. Deutsche Grammophon "tonmeisters" earned notoriety, especially during this period, for producing glassy, harsh, over-miked, over-mixed horrors. At least this recording is partially redeemed by having been mastered on analog tape. DG's digital efforts have typically been unlistenably awful, which is why to this reviewer, unless the performance is truly remarkable in some way, that bright yellow DG label may as well be a "Bio-Hazard" warning.

My take on early DG recordings exactly, which, when I find replacement performances, I'm getting rid of all of my DG discs recorded/pressed before about 1989. Let's hear it for re-mastering, and SACD!

[Deleted User]

Hello Oldwriter,
Thanks for the postings. The Baltimore Sun music critic wrote a really interesting piece about seeing Kleiber conduct Der Rosenkavalier. As he was buying the ticket, the ticket seller warned him that Pavarotti might not sing in that night's performance (the role of the "Italian singer" can often be a surprise cameo for an audience). The critic replied that, "he could care less about Pavarotti, he was there because Kleiber was conducting". He said the result was incredible, the most exciting opera performance he had ever heard. Kleiber had rehearsed the orchestra for over three hours on just the first few notes. He wanted the musicians to believe so thoroughly in the music that they played inspired. The critic said, throughout the performance, he kept looking from the stage performers, to the orchestra to watching Kleiber's hands. Everything was so well deeply understood by everyone concerned that it was if this were the first performance ever given of this piece.
I agree about the DG recordings, when compared to London or RCA or Mercury they are not very good sounding, a few exceptions, but mostly bad.
Take care, Ken

Oldwriter

Ken - thanks for the reply - I don't get many cogent comments on these threads, so welcome any and all.
Although I "missed" Kleiber's Big American Debut with the Chicago Symphony back in 1978 (I think) I have heard musicians discuss his "exhausting" rehearsal styles. they, however, grew to love him because of his love of music. These folk said that when everything was going "right," they could see the glow in Kleiber's eyes, and knew by his bodily movements that they were all in sync.
Though I never knew Mr. Kleiber, I did know a man with a similar, if lesser, reputation for demanding rehearsals - and for his love of music. I refer to Sir Georg Solti. During his tenure in Chicago I became well-acquainted with him - and his wonderful wife, Valerie. Sigh. Was devastated when he died - but then, he was an old, if vigorous, man by then.
When Solti rehearsed, you could almost literally see sparks coming from his head! I swear it! Musicians in the Chi. Sym. have commented similarly. Solti always kissed off any comments on his strenuous rehearsal style by saying: "I'm a slow learner, so I have to take everything a note at a time." Yeah, sure. . .
Anyway - the greats are fading away - and we can only hope that perhaps this new SACD technology will keep alive the sonic values that they initially gave to the world.
Thanks again. Respectfully, Larry R.

[Deleted User]

Hello Larry,
Thanks for the very welcome post. You're certainly a fortunate man in knowing Sir Georg and his wife! His recordings with the Chicago Symphony are second to none. In fact, I think that's the "Der Rosenkavalier" that I have and, while I've not heard Kleiber's, I love it. Also his Beethoven Symphony cycle almost has the groves worn off I've played them so much. Please forgive my curiosity, but when the maestro was at home, what audio equipment did he have? It's kind of an audio inside joke that the more famous and skilled the musician, the more terrible the audio equipment. I've known a few classical musicians, over the years, and they can have some strange ideas of what's good audio gear. My theory is that all they need is a suggestion of what the music is supposed to sound like, they can make the rest up in their heads. Supposedly Glenn Gould had a good audio system and appreciated good quality audio.

Regards, Ken

Oldwriter

Ken:
In answer to your question re HiFi in Sir Georg's apartment. He didn't. Have much, that is. I remember that he had a Blaupunkt shortwave radio, and a small stereo that played both tape and CDs - certainly not "audiophile" quality stuff. In his Orchestra Hall office, however, some tech-friends set up a rather adequate system, with B & W speakers and as I remember some British equipment - just don't remember anything other than the speakers, because they're about my favorites. (no sleight to Polk intended)
Also of interest was Margaret Hillis - the long-time director of the ChiSym Chorus (excellent!) I was at a reception in her beautiful home one winter day, and was looking around to see what sort of music "gear" she might have.
She came into what she called her "work room," and asked me if I was interested in anything particular. Yes, I said, what kind of stereo equipment do you have - I don't see around here.
And you never will, she said. Look - pointing to her head - I have it ALL up here, and anytime I need to call up a piece, I just think about it and hear it "live" again. Her memory was incredible, and I truly believe she could "hear" anything she'd ever conducted - or perhaps heard, for that matter!
Both people are, sadly, gone - but the music they so carefully and lovingly produced lives on - thank God!
Respectfully, Larry R.

gregure

First of all, WELCOME BACK LARRY. You've been missed. Glad you posted on this very interesting thread.
In response to so much I've read, here goes:
1. Kleiber's Rosenkavalier is on DVD, and is supposed to be superb! I don't have it myself, as I've always been partial to Salome and Elektra myself, but the reviews are phenomenal.
2. I agree, many of DG's recordings from the 60's and 70's are shrill and bright, and the bass gets lost. Although there are quite a few that are good, especially many of the 70's recordings from the Philharmonie in Berlin. But I love Karajan's recordings to death, so I'm biased.
3. I disagree that the Musikverein makes for bad recordings. There are so many great recordings in that hall with the VPO. The '89 Karajan New Year's concert is a must have. The DVD has even more cues, but is unfortunately adorned with inserts of ballet dancers and such, rather than focusing on the performance. A very annoying decision, although the music sounds wonderful on DVD. Other great recordings-Solti's Ring Cycle, not DG but the argument was the hall as much as the label, Solti's Schubert 8&9 (again-Decca), Karajan's Aida (EMI), Giulini's Rigolleto (DG), Abbado's Beethoven 6&8 (DG Master's, early 80's), Karajan's mish-mash of Les Preludes/Finlandia/Pelleas and Melesande (sp?)/Mltava (DG Masters), Mehta's Mahler 2 (Decca Legends-actually my favorite recording of my favorite symphony-the organ entry is spine tingling every time-and all on a single low priced CD!!!). Agreed, many of these aren't DG, but they are thrilling recordings made in the Grosser Saal in the Musikverein, which it was argued can produce poor acoustics. Newer DG recordings have done very well in the hall, my favorite of recent years being Chung's recording of Dvorak's symphonies 6&8. Another must have VPO recording is Boulez's Bruckner 8, w/ VPO, but recorded in Linz. And of course, my ultimate favorite w/ VPO, with wonderful sound, made by Phillips--Alfred Brendel's Emperor Concerto recording with Sir Simon Rattle conducting. Absolutely rapturous, every time I hear it. Sorry about the long response, but I really do love this orchestra, although the Berlin Phil has been and probably will always be my favorite. Check out the Abbado/BPO Beethoven symphony cycle on DVD. Recorded in Rome, available in DTS, they are superb. The Eroica is absolutely sublime. Happy listening.
PS. My posts tend to be long after I've had a bit too much wine, so please forgive me.

Oldwriter

Greg et al - fine to be back, if only for a short visit. Have switched to another forum, and only posted here in answer to Ken's comments re Carlos Kleiber.
Again, Greg, you rather amaze me with your knowledge of music and recordings! I can't say that I share your love of the Berlin Boys, but VPO, in proper form, is magical.
I'll look around for some of the titles you mention, though at the moment I'm in the midst of root canals and crowns, and not in the best of humor! Sure you can understand.
Have pretty much decided that my CD player must go - so am looking around for a replacement - this fall, after the new models come out. I hear great early reports for Denon, Samsung and Sony - all due the last of September.
I eagerly await each new SACD, and keep hoping that the best of Kleiber, Solti, etc. will be included in the catalogs. I'm trying to hold back on "regular" CD purchases, though I'm afraid that the new technology won't include many of my favorites.
IF you're a fan of Kiri te Kanawa, BTW, Decca is bringing out a new DVD/CD combo pack of her Songs of the Auvergne, which promises to be stunning. If you've not heard those recordings, and if you like her, I highly recommend. The only other version of the Canteloube songs I'd recommend is the "short version" by Anna Moffo and Stokowski. Wonderful!
Away to hoped-for sleep. Hope all goes well with you, Greg!
Respectfully, Larry R.

Oldwriter

Greg, et al
You mention Mahler 2nd - well, I'm hearing great reports out of San Francisco re MTT's newly-recorded version - part of his Mahler cycle recordings. Not sure when it is to be released, but I'll snap it up when it is! Larry R.

gregure

I'm sure the new SFS Mahler 2 is very good, but I don't think it will beat the Mehta version. It's really magical, and that ending is just earth shattering!!! Let me know how MTT's version is, anyway, I'm still curious. Wanted to see it live some years ago, but of all the concerts in the season, that was the only show that was completely sold out. :mad:

[Deleted User]

Hello Larry,
Sorry to read of your dental woes, I hope you're feeling much better. I won an ebay auction for a sealed Quad (the second surround sound format, I believe) of the Angel LP of Sviatoslav Richter playing the Dvorak piano concerto in G minor with Carlos Kleiber conducting the Bavarian State Orchestra. Since Richter is one of my favorites I'm hoping for the best of both worlds, a great player and a great conductor!
A side benefit is that Quad recordings tend to have very good fidelity, in general terms. There could still be the poor imaging of too many microphones, but the necessity of recording very high frequencies, on the record, usually means fairly satisfactory high frequency performance and quiet vinyl. But, it also means the playback cartridge needs to be properly aligned and records that have not been carefully cared for could suffer. But since this is sealed, I'm hoping everything sounds as expected.
I'll let you know.
Take care, Ken.
p.s. I'd be very interested to know how your search for an SACD player turns out.

Oldwriter

Ken et al: Well, I remember it - vinyl, that is - but seems like an eternity ago that I had all my discs and turntable and anti-static gun and cleaning cloths and "kill-pop" filter, etc. etc.
Several moves ago, the mopes decided to relieve me of my collection - and that was the end of my LP days. I think it was 1984 - not sure. Sigh.
You caught me with only hours to go before I lock up my computer and head West.
Merri and I are going on this year's "Grand Adventure" to Santa Fe - for La Sonnambula, Don Giovanni and Simon Boccanegra. If you've never been in the SF open-air opera house, well, my friend, you've missed both stunning scenery and amazing performances.
Been saving up all year for this - and so intend to relish every moment. Of course, with my love of things HOT, there'll be tons of chile peppers around, also! GRIN
Will post a mercifully short "review" of our adventure when we get back, August 18.
Good listening! and always good to get your postings.
Respectfully, Larry R.

Oldwriter

Yo - Ken et al. Santa Fe Opera was pure magic! The only problem we had there was that we kept one eye on the stage, the other on The Weather Channel, as hurricane Charley bore down on our house. fortunately, the storm went 35 miles north of us, and we only got minor damage.
Natalie Dessay was so grand in La Sonnambula! The audience went crazy, and I got all teary-eyed and slobberish. Won't bore with details - but everybody should hear this woman sing!
Simon Boccanegra with Patricia Racette was right up there, and a fine, if unusual performance. The set was "minimalist," and we found that a bit off-putting. But the singing! First-rate!
Don Giovanni was, well, about my 20th time out with that one, and, as in the movie "Amadeus," - Too Many Notes! Mozart needed an editor for this one - a comment I'm sure will bring all sorts of retorts?
Coming home was a letdown - and now we're starting to save up for our 2005 "Adventure." London in September. Haven't been there, and need to go before either I'm too old or the world collapses around us.
Now - my search for a SACD player was put on hold by the storm, and our decision to take the money we'd saved up and donate it to the hurricane relief fund - which we did. Nothing "noble," or anything - we just thought there was greater need than for us to have a new toy.
As I sit here, I'm into the research for a new player - which hopefully we might buy the first of the year? Looking closely at Denon's new 2910 - and of all things, Samsung's new 941. Not the current 841, which has some problems.
Well - dat's about it for now. Hope all is well and that you are of "sound" (oh, ouch!) mind! Respectfully, Larry R.

John K.

Larry, it sounds like you and Merri had a wonderful time in Santa Fe, and of course it was nice that when you got home it was still there.

On a couple trips to London we've greatly enjoyed some LSO concerts at the Barbican. If you're going to be there in early September you can possibly take in some Proms concerts, even closing night, so start planning for those tickets.

Oldwriter

John K. et al - thank you - and yes, we're starting now to research all the possible concert schedules - and from what I understand, there's more music in London than we could ever hear! That's the good news. The possible bad news is that something will come along to dampen our enthusiasm, or ruin the trip. Life is, after all, uncertain! (grin)
Each year we try to one thing "special." Just for us. And all year we cut back on one thing or another to reach our goal. It's good "character building," according to my dear wife. Hmmm. . .
We'll see what happens - your points duly noted!
Respectfully, Larry R.