Opinion(Please help ASAP): Krell Showcase 5ch amp for $2400 vs Outlaw 755

malikarshad · July 2004

I have chance to buy the Krell showcase 5 channel amp for $2400 with no interest for 24 months from a local store
Should i take this deal or pass it.
I was eyeing on the Outlaw 755/770.
How does the outlaw compare in price/performace ration with the Krell amp for $2400.
I know Krell and outlaw are in different leagues but given the price of amp should i consider buying the Krell or i should buy the outlaw.
I have only few days to decide as I have put the amp on hold for a day or two.
Guys, you have been really helpful. I would really appreciate if you can give your valuable opinions in a timely manner.
I'll be upgrading to LSi speakers in the near future. I already own the Outlaw M200 monoblock amps

scornful · July 2004

What will you be using for a Pre/Pro?

Considering you will be moving to LSI's soon, the Krell would be my personal choice. 250W into 4ohms is plenty for any of the LSI's I believe. The major deciding factor to me is name recognition and resale value.

How do you llike the M200's? You using them on the 150's? I just hooked mine up and put them into protect mode (thermal) after 15 minutes of Korn.... lol. Yes, they are stacked, but not for long. The bottom amp was plenty hot.

TroyD · July 2004

The major deciding factor for me would be how it sounds. Does sound like a good price for the Krell though...

BDT

pjdami · July 2004

Will you get the warranty with the Krell amp?

I know a guy here in town that runs a Denon 5803 as a prepro with a Krell showcase amp on some Martin Logans and he loves his system. Sounds like a nice deal. Perhaps overkill for the LSi but allows you to not have an "upgraditis" feeling for a long time. Krell has great resale value to on Audiogon if you don't like it.

I have a Krell KAV400xi integrated and I love it. I liked it more than a Plinius amp I also had for a couple of weeks.

PolkThug · July 2004

I would definitely go with the Outlaw 770 for $1799.

Outlaw web site:
Power output: 200 watts RMS x 7 (all channels driven simultaneously into 8 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.05% total harmonic distortion). 300 watts RMS x 7 @ 4 ohms

Some people claim to hear differences in amplifiers, but when it comes down to true blind testing under identical db's, these differences "go away". Just do a search on the $10,000 amp challenge offered by Richard Clark.

Regards,
PolkThug

I-SIG · July 2004

Originally posted by PolkThug
Some people claim to hear differences in amplifiers, but when it comes down to true blind testing under identical db's, these differences "go away". Just do a search on the $10,000 amp challenge offered by Richard Clark.

Regards,
PolkThug

If that's the case, then why not get the Krell for the resale value down the road if they sound the same? Inquiring minds want to know!

Wes

malikarshad · July 2004

Originally posted by scornful
What will you be using for a Pre/Pro?

How do you llike the M200's? You using them on the 150's? I just hooked mine up and put them into protect mode (thermal) after 15 minutes of Korn.... lol. Yes, they are stacked, but not for long. The bottom amp was plenty hot.

The pre/pro would be Denon 3803 for now. Do u think I should get the Krell pre/pro? that's also on sale if its worth the price of $2000.

I did try the Rti150's with M200 and they were good but again I liked the sound of Rti70 and Rti38 stacked. It sounds more fuller then the Rti150 in the midbass. BTW I unhooked the Rti70 tweeter and it sounds sweet now. I also tried Lsi9 with M200 and they sounded great but not the fuller sound of a tower speaker.

Anyways back to the Krell amp. I have to take a very bold step to buy and $2400 amp. That's why I'm little nervous about it.

Originally posted by pjdami
Will you get the warranty with the Krell amp?
I have a Krell KAV400xi integrated and I love it. I liked it more than a Plinius amp I also had for a couple of weeks.

Yes it comes with a 5 year warranty and its from an authorized dealer.
So if i take a plunge and get the krell amp how much do u think the resale value would be after 2 years?
Just want to make sure i make an informed decision.
Does a balanced input help in any case?

I want to know the advantages and disadvantages of buying Krell over Outlaw and vice versa.
I really appreciate all of your inputs. thanks a lot.

malikarshad · July 2004

Given that Krell is 125w x 8, 250W x4 and
Outlaw is 200W x8, 300W x4. Would Outlaw out perform Krell.
Basically apart from the Krell name & resale value stuff what so good about Krell from peformance point of view to pay $2400 for it.
Are the components much better than outlaw?
Please let me know.

pjdami · July 2004

You are going to get a mixed bag of different responses here on what to do. The best thing to do is see if the dealer will give you an in house demo on the Krell. Compare the sound to the Outlaw monoblocks you have looking for obvious differences in tonal quality. Most dealers will allow in house demos on gear with that price tag (at least mine did). If that is not an option, see if he will let you bring the monoblocks to the store and do the demo there. I would think that the larger Outlaw amps have a similar sound characteristic to your monoblocks but will be more dynamic.

Ultimately it is your ears and your wallet. Don't let the fancy names persuade you one way or another.

That is some unbelievable prices on Krell though and with warranty as well....I know where I would be right now;)

F1nut · July 2004

As Troy and Paul have stated, you need to listen to them. As for the Krell pre/pro, yes it's going to sound better than the Denon. Resale value.....the Krell, hands down.

venomclan · July 2004

Hi Malikarshad,
I currently have a Krell Kav250a-250watts x 2, runnning my mains, and an Outlaw M200 running my center channel. I used to have all M200's running every speaker and sold all but the one when I bought the Krell.

The thing I noticed when switching to the Krell was the bass. Thunderous bass. But very controlled by my B&W's. After some more research on Krell, I found that they tend to be an in your face amp. On the forward side. They are used in many applications where the speakers require a lot of power. The Krell's seem to take hold of the speakers and control them, with seemingly unlimited power.

I do like the Outlaws and think that they have great products and at a great value. They tend to sound pretty smooth and sweet. I do prefer the Krell though. As far as resale later on, krell takes it hands down. They are built like tanks and hold a nice value on the used market.

The 5 year warranty is the same for Outlaw and Krell. I would suggest taking your M200's to the store and do a side by side listening. If you plan on going LSI in the near future, I would recommend the LSI15's, either the Krell or Outlaws would push them nicely.
Regards,
Venom

malikarshad · July 2004

Originally posted by venomclan
Hi Malikarshad,
I currently have a Krell Kav250a-250watts x 2, runnning my mains, and an Outlaw M200 running my center channel. I used to have all M200's running every speaker and sold all but the one when I bought the Krell.
Venom

That 's what my questions was Krell showcase is 125 x 8 and the outlaw is 200W x 8. there is a diff of 75 watts x8 and 50 w x 4.
When buying an amp what factors do u look at, apart from the power ratings.
I have to make my final decision tomorrow.
My main hesitation is the price difference between the outlaw 770 which $1549 (shipped Bstock) vs $2550 with tax . That's a difference of $1000.
Do you think krell is good enough for a $1000 price difference given its wattage is less than outlaw 770 not considering the resale value.
I know the final decision is my ears but still I want to make up my confused mind to justify a $1000 price difference.
All of your opinions really help me in making a decisions.
Thanks a lot guys.

F1nut · July 2004

Watts are not everything, more important are the damping factor, output current (amps), voltage RMS, signal to noise ratio and THD. Actually, the difference between 125 wpc and 200 wpc is very small.

F1nut · July 2004

Here is the Bluebook info:

KRELL
PWR, SHOWCASE 5
Description: 5-CHANNEL, UPGRADEABLE, DISCRETE CLASS A
Manufacture Years: 2002 - Current
Additional Information:
Power: 125
Retail
MSRP: $4,500.00
USED: $2,800.00
Wholesale
Mint: $1,900.00
Average: $1,300.00

OUTLAW
PWR, 755
Description: 5-CHANNEL, CLASS AB, RCA INPUTS
Manufacture Years: 2002 - Current
Additional Information:
Power: 200
Retail
MSRP: $1,300.00
USED: $650.00
Wholesale
Mint: $400.00
Average: $240.00

OUTLAW
PWR, 770
Description: 7-CHANNEL, CLASS AB, DUAL TORROIDAL TRANSFORMERS
Manufacture Years: 2002 - Current
Additional Information:
Power: 200
Retail
MSRP: $1,800.00
USED: $900.00
Wholesale
Mint: $550.00
Average: $350.00

Just looking at this info, the fact that the Krell is upgradeable and runs discrete Class A has my interest.

F1nut · July 2004

~Outlaw Model 770 Technical Specifications~

Power output: 200 watts RMS x 7 (all channels driven simultaneously into 8 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.05% total harmonic distortion). 300 watts RMS x 7 @ 4 ohms

S/N: 119 dB

Power Bandwidth: 5 Hz - over 100 kHz (+0/-3 dB)

Damping factor: 850 (10 Hz - 400 Hz)

Input sensitivity/Impedance: 1.43 volts for full output/28 k ohms

Crosstalk: Greater than -90 dB from 20 Hz to 20 KHz

Gain: Voltage gain of 28 dB

Slew rate: 50 Volts/microsecond

Remote Trigger voltage: 3 - 32 volts DC

Power requirements: 115 V 50-60 Hz

Power consumption: 1,800 watts (maximum)

Dimensions (W x H x D): 17.2 x 7.75 with feet x 18 (inches)

Weight: 90 (lbs)

~Outlaw Model 755 Technical Specifications~

Power output: 200 watts RMS x 5 (all channels driven simultaneously into 8 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.05% total harmonic distortion). 300 watts RMS x 5 @ 4 ohms

S/N: 119 dB "A" weighted

Power Bandwidth: 5 Hz - over 100 kHz (+0/-3 dB)

Damping factor: 850 (10 Hz - 400 Hz)

Input sensitivity/Impedance: 1.43 volts for full output/28 k ohms

Crosstalk: Greater than -90 dB from 20 Hz to 20 KHz

Gain: Voltage gain of 28 dB

Slew rate: 50 Volts/microsecond

Remote Trigger voltage: 3 - 32 volts DC

Power requirements: 115 V 50-60 Hz

Power consumption: 1,800 watts (maximum)

Dimensions (W x H x D): 17.2 x 7.75 with feet x 18 (inches)

Weight: 78 (lbs)

~Krell Showcase 5 Specifications~

Frequency Response: 20 20,000 Hz, 0, -0.15 dB 0.2 95,000 Hz, +0, -3 dB

Signal to Noise: Better than 110 dB A weighted

Gain: 26.2 dB

Total Harmonic Distortion: Less than 0.03% at 1 kHz Less than 0.20% at 20 kHz

Input Impedance: 45 kohms

Input Sensitivity: 1.55 Vrms

Output Power: 125 W at 8 ohms 250 W at 4 ohms

Output Voltage: 190 V peak to peak 32 Vrms

Power Consumption: 70 W 110 W 1,200 W

Inputs: 5 single-ended via RCA connectors 5 balanced via XLR connectors

Outputs: 5 channels via 5-way binding posts

Remote Connections: 12 VDC out (12 V trigger) via 3.5 mm connector

Dimensions: 17.3 x 5.7 x 19.8 in. 43.9 x 14.5 x 50.3 cm

Weight Shipping: 64 lb. 29.0 kg

Weight Unit: 56 lb. 25.3 kg

GOOD LUCK!!!

malikarshad · July 2004

Originally posted by F1nut
Here is the Bluebook info:

KRELL
PWR, SHOWCASE 5
Description: 5-CHANNEL, UPGRADEABLE, DISCRETE CLASS A
Manufacture Years: 2002 - Current
Wholesale
Mint: $1,900.00
Average: $1,300.00

OUTLAW
PWR, 755
Description: 5-CHANNEL, CLASS AB, RCA INPUTS
Just looking at this info, the fact that the Krell is upgradeable and runs discrete Class A has my interest.

Thanks a lot for the info. It helps a lot.
So is Discrete Class A supposed to be better than Class AB. What are the advantages of Class A or Class AB in terms of performance. I know class A is very inefficient in power compared to class AB.
The store is closing out on Krell products so they have to sell all Krell products in a given time. The one Im getting is the demo model. Given these facts and the wholesale price is $1900 for mint how do you think is should talk down the price to. I know they want to get rid of all there Krell products.
How much low should i ask for without being felt stupid? Is $1800 good price to talk down to compared to $2400.
I'm going in the store today evening so I would really appreciate your replies.
Thanks

venomclan · July 2004

Hi,
I would offer them $2100 and see if they bite or budge. I would go for the Krell in the long run, especially if you plan to upgrade your speakers in the future. The Krell will be overkill on your present speakes or LSI Series. If you budget allows, the Krell will let you go to more higher-end than Polk.

I do not think it was discussed in this thread yet, what pre amp are you using or plan to use?

I had heard the Krell amp you are thinking about getting, hooked up to its mated Krell Home Theater Standard pre amp, and a sony dvd player. The speakers used were Sonus Fabre Cremonas ($8000/pair). I listened in 2 channel only. Result: The Cremonas are the best speaker I have ever heard. The Krell mated great with them.

I then demo'd the big brother to your Krell at 200w x 5, hooked to a Martin Logan set. I did not like it at all, very shrill. I think that the Krell is too upfront for ML speakers.

But this is my honest Opinion. It is subjective. Good luck with your purchase.
Regards,
Venom

F1nut · July 2004

The wholesale price is not what you'd pay, so $2400.00 isn't a bad deal. Of course, you should see if they will go lower, nothing to lose, eh? There was one of the Krell's that came up on Audiogon yesterday, a demo model for $2400.00, it sold a couple of hours!

Class A runs hotter and is less efficient, but it does sound better/cleaner.

Worse case, if you find you don't want or like it, you could sell it on Audiogon for what you paid.

malikarshad · July 2004

I'll try to talk down to a lower price and i'm relaxed to see that It sold for the exact same price i'm buying at.
here is article on the Krell showcase pre/pro amp if anybody is interested
http://www.hometheatermag.com/preampsurroundprocessors/141/

Lets see what happens today.
Thanks a lot guys to help me out.

malikarshad · July 2004

The sales guy turned back on his word. He raised the price to $2800. He said he cannot sell for $2400.
Bad luck.
Anyways thank everybody for help and support.
Better luck next time.

venomclan · July 2004

Hey Malikarshad,
I am not sure that that is legal. I beleive that a store must sell a product at its dispalyed price, whether or not it was a mistake. If I were you, since you have nothing to lose at this point, I would go in there, see the manager or owner and **** like like hell. As long as they are not going out of business (they won't care anyway) it may work.
Jeremy

polkatese · July 2004

this is a sales tactic that I have also encountered before, some salesmen would play this game, if they felt that the buyer is not serious (in my case). It is also, in part, that you are dealing with high-end audio snobbery - until you made the first purchase (again, in my experience) - after that, the relationship become a lot easier, since then, they know that it is real.....

malikarshad · July 2004

The displayed price was $3147 and when I talked with him on the phone 2 days ago he said he would sell the display model for $2400. He confirmed it and when I went last evening he said he never said it was $2400.
The store is closing out on all Krell products that means that won't be Krell authorized dealer soon. I went to the other store and the sales guy told he want to buy it for himself with an employee discount. I guess there was no point in talk him down for the price since he himself is interested.
I had called all the store in my town for the amp and all of them have only display model and the pricetag is $3147.
I'll try my luck again.

F1nut · July 2004

I don't know about the legal aspect, but morally what the salesman is doing is wrong. As Venomclan stated, I too would talk to the manager or owner about it. Raise a big effn stink!!!

dorokusai · July 2004

The legal implication is probably determined by the state law.

There is no harm in letting your concerns be noted to the management, and let them know that the Better Business Bureau is another place that compiles complaints, regardless of whether an actual transaction took place.

I would send a nice email to Krell about the "transaction" regardless of the future status of that store in their dealer network.

Just a couple thoughts, depends on how interested you are in exercising your rights as a consumer. This certainly makes the decision easier eh?

HBombToo · July 2004

The classic "bait and switch" is illegal!

BBB would be my first move.

HBomb

malikarshad · July 2004

How do I proceed with no proof? It was just a verbal offer.
Appreciate the info u guys provided.
Does it make sense to write to Krell since the store is not going to carry Krell products anymore.

PolkThug · July 2004

I'd chalk it up as an experience and move on. Give the outlaw people a call.

Regards,
PolkThug

malikarshad · August 2004

Yup u are right. I guess outlaw is my best bet.
There is no point in dragging. I have outlaw monoblocks and I'm happy with it. That's why I was confused between Krell and outlaw. I could not justify the price difference.
BTW I was auditioning lots of front speaker configuration in my setup.
I tried the following configuration as my fronts
1. Rti70/rti38 stacked : that was my original fronts : The sound was bright with the outlaw amps
2. Rti70/Rti38 with 70's tweeter unplugged : the brightness went away
3. Lsi9 - Clear highs but lacked the midbass and the fuller sound of tower speaker
4. Rti70/Lsi7 stacked with 70's tweeter unpluggged - Best of all combination. Clear highs with fuller sound.
Thanks a lot again for all your help and support.

Originally posted by PolkThug
I'd chalk it up as an experience and move on. Give the outlaw people a call.

Regards,
PolkThug

gregure · August 2004

If Krell is out of your price league, and the Outlaws make you happy, I think you should go Outlaw without looking back. Also, it seems a general consensus deems the Krell more forward and "in-your-face," whereas the Outlaws are thought to be smoother. Something tells me a smoother sound would match the LSi series better than a more forward sound. Happy buying.

Opinion(Please help ASAP): Krell Showcase 5ch amp for $2400 vs Outlaw 755

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