Outlaw M200 and harsh sound

malikarshad
malikarshad Posts: 527
edited July 2004 in Electronics
Got my outlaw M200's yesterday and hooked up right away to power the fronts Rti70 & Rti38's:cool:
The first impression when i played music (2-channel) was WOW!!!. I could play loud at 0db on Denon 3803. I never played it that loud.
Then I recalibrated my system to listen to HT and I started noticing the harshness at nominal loud levels for both music( 2-channel) and HT.
I thought the stacking may be causing it because of two tweeters so I unhooked the rti38 and played on only Rti70 but the problem persists. In fact with only Rti70 running the sound seemed very shallow & thin. Maybe I’m used to the deeper and wider soundstage of stacked speakers.
I doubled checked the calibration with the AVIA disc and all the channel levels are 85db C weighted.
What could be the problem? Is due to other speakers running on 3803? But why the 2-channel is harsh as it’s not using the receiver amplifier at all? Does anyone have their main speakers and other speakers driven by separate amps and noticed the difference in SQ. I know Dr. Spec has M200’s and has denon 3803.
I have Rti150 as my surround speaker as I did not have proper amplification before to drive them. Now I have M200’s do you guys think Rti 150 should be moved up as main speakers? Guys for heaven’s sake I don’t want to get into Rti70 vs. Rti150. I have read enough of that.
All I’m asking is where should I look for the problem and how to resolve it.

I want to thank all of you in advance for their valuable time and opinion. This forum has been great so far.

Speakers=>Salk Soundscape 8, Soundscape Center,Surrounds-Dali Rubicon LCR, Lsi7
PreAmp, Amp => Marantz AV8801, ATI 6007 amp, Oppo HA-1 DAC
Source => Sonore MicroRendu, Oppo BDP-103, Mede8er 600XD, Dune HD Smart D1, Synology DS1813+(16TB)
Sub - JTR Captivator S2 (Dual 18")
Power - Furman IT-Ref20i on dedicated 30Amp circuit with Furutech GTX-R outlet
Screen=> JVC RS-45 projector Da-Lite HP 133" 2.35
Post edited by malikarshad on
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Comments

  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,791
    edited July 2004
    IMO -

    I would unplug one of the silks and see how that works for ya...

    I would unplug the RTI70 tweet since it is easier accessed via binding posts (top post)...

    :: Maybe I’m used to the deeper and wider soundstage of stacked speakers. :: :p:D :cool: :);):p:o LOL! This is great, finally someone else hears it...anyways

    I would not move the RTi150 to the front, if you do, you might feel you lost a great amount of midrange....

    If you do do that, you might want to leave the RTi38 up there to stack with it -- not sure how that would work out.

    Anyways, Placement could be the reason....

    You might wanna even try toilet paper, maybe 3 layers or so...over the tweeters. That is what I do to my Definitives
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • faster100
    faster100 Posts: 6,124
    edited July 2004
    i don't have any answer directly, I would give it a few days without the stacking setup... Although it looks cool, and may sound different, maybe better... Its not the optimal setup for the speakers regardless what trey says ;) I have used my 3803 and amps on the front stage only and never could tell a tonal difference, certainly not for the worst with a external power amp.
    On a side not IMO, the 150's as rears is really wasteing a nice loudspeaker, although with that nice sub the 70's would be perfect up front.... If you have 150's i would run em up front and 70's to the rear... also gives more options for 2 channel without a sub.. and now you have the power for them as well... combined with the 3803 amps..... I hope this somewhat helped ya
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2

    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC
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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited July 2004
    The 3803/M200 and tri-lam combination is bright and tends toward sibilance on my system.

    The M200 definitely added better dynamics, more detail, and a wider/deeper soundstage. But it's a bright amp, that's for sure.

    I wouldn't call it harsh though, and I figured the silk dome would be better in that respect, but maybe not.

    The 3803/M200 and the LSi7 is much better, with no sibilance or brightness at all. The 7's have found a fairly permanent perch atop the 800's for both 2 channel and HT applications.

    That doesn't help you any though. Maybe the different tonal character of the 150's (less mids and fuller bass) will match up better with the M200s.

    And I've heard of the tweeter tissue paper thing before - possibly worth a try?
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • malikarshad
    malikarshad Posts: 527
    edited July 2004
    Doc i really appreciate your valuable reply.
    Are u using Lsi7 stacked with Rt800i?
    Can you let me know your configuration with the receiver and the M200's.
    I'll definitely try moving 70's and 150's around and see how it feels.
    Tissue paper I never thought of that. But i'll try every possible thing.
    I ordered another M200 today for my center along with the outlaw interconnect. Will arrive possibly next week.
    Keep me posted guys.
    All your opinions are very valuable to me.
    Thanks again.

    Speakers=>Salk Soundscape 8, Soundscape Center,Surrounds-Dali Rubicon LCR, Lsi7
    PreAmp, Amp => Marantz AV8801, ATI 6007 amp, Oppo HA-1 DAC
    Source => Sonore MicroRendu, Oppo BDP-103, Mede8er 600XD, Dune HD Smart D1, Synology DS1813+(16TB)
    Sub - JTR Captivator S2 (Dual 18")
    Power - Furman IT-Ref20i on dedicated 30Amp circuit with Furutech GTX-R outlet
    Screen=> JVC RS-45 projector Da-Lite HP 133" 2.35
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited July 2004
    Ditto what Doc said about the M200 and Lsi7's. I have the M200s powering a pair of Lsi7's on my 2-channel system and it sounds awesome. Certainly not harsh or bright at all. Those monoblocks are probably releasing every ounce of sound from those 70's, and coupled with the 3803, I'm not surprised that it's sounding a bit bright. Probably gonna sound that way with any RTi series speaker you use.

    I believe you're experiencing a well known tenant in the audio world -- movie and music systems (usually) don't mix. I'll bet for movies those Outlaws are fantastic. But with music, well....
    That's why I opted for two separate systems.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • malikarshad
    malikarshad Posts: 527
    edited July 2004
    Well said Early B. and now I tempted to buy Lsi7 and Brett has it on sale. Damn I ordered another M200 for my center a day before Brett put it on sale. I would have waited. Now I think of getting the Lsi7 & returning the M200 for the center. What do ya all think?
    How does the Lsi series blend in with the Rti for HT and music (PL II)?

    Well I tried to put some toilet paper and it helped a little bit. How many layers of toilet paper do I need to use?
    Originally posted by Early B.
    Ditto what Doc said about the M200 and Lsi7's. I have the M200s powering a pair of Lsi7's on my 2-channel system and it sounds awesome. Certainly not harsh or bright at all.

    Speakers=>Salk Soundscape 8, Soundscape Center,Surrounds-Dali Rubicon LCR, Lsi7
    PreAmp, Amp => Marantz AV8801, ATI 6007 amp, Oppo HA-1 DAC
    Source => Sonore MicroRendu, Oppo BDP-103, Mede8er 600XD, Dune HD Smart D1, Synology DS1813+(16TB)
    Sub - JTR Captivator S2 (Dual 18")
    Power - Furman IT-Ref20i on dedicated 30Amp circuit with Furutech GTX-R outlet
    Screen=> JVC RS-45 projector Da-Lite HP 133" 2.35
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited July 2004
    How does the Lsi series blend in with the Rti for HT and music (PL II)?

    I have a pair of Lsi7's pulling rear duty on my HT system. I got 70's up front, Csi40 in the center, and Fxi30's as rear surrounds. I used to have Rti38's in the rear, but when I changed to the Lsi7's, I got a bit more detail. Works well for me. However, I wouldn't recommend putting the 7's up front. I tried it and it didn't work at all. The 70's are much, much better for HT.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • malikarshad
    malikarshad Posts: 527
    edited July 2004
    how about Lsi9 or Lsi15. Any opinions? My plan is to slowly upgrade to Lsi. But I don't like the LSic. Does Csi40 blend in well with Lsi.

    Speakers=>Salk Soundscape 8, Soundscape Center,Surrounds-Dali Rubicon LCR, Lsi7
    PreAmp, Amp => Marantz AV8801, ATI 6007 amp, Oppo HA-1 DAC
    Source => Sonore MicroRendu, Oppo BDP-103, Mede8er 600XD, Dune HD Smart D1, Synology DS1813+(16TB)
    Sub - JTR Captivator S2 (Dual 18")
    Power - Furman IT-Ref20i on dedicated 30Amp circuit with Furutech GTX-R outlet
    Screen=> JVC RS-45 projector Da-Lite HP 133" 2.35
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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited July 2004
    However, I wouldn't recommend putting the 7's up front. I tried it and it didn't work at all. The 70's are much, much better for HT.

    I've got the 7's in the front stage and it works fine with the CS400i. I'm pretty picky and while the timbre match isn't perfect, it's definitely very agreable and liveable. YMMV of course.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • malikarshad
    malikarshad Posts: 527
    edited July 2004
    Is it Ok to put the 3 M200 on top of Pb2+
    Would any vibration from the sub cause any damage to the amps?
    I don't have an open space for the amps in my media center. I'll buy a separate rack later but for now I want to keep some where it can breath and since pb2+ is in a corner that seemed the right place to me.
    Let me know guys. Thanks

    Speakers=>Salk Soundscape 8, Soundscape Center,Surrounds-Dali Rubicon LCR, Lsi7
    PreAmp, Amp => Marantz AV8801, ATI 6007 amp, Oppo HA-1 DAC
    Source => Sonore MicroRendu, Oppo BDP-103, Mede8er 600XD, Dune HD Smart D1, Synology DS1813+(16TB)
    Sub - JTR Captivator S2 (Dual 18")
    Power - Furman IT-Ref20i on dedicated 30Amp circuit with Furutech GTX-R outlet
    Screen=> JVC RS-45 projector Da-Lite HP 133" 2.35
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,760
    edited July 2004
    Do not place your amp or any other gear on top of a sub, bad vibes.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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