Serious Issue With MM12s

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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited July 2004
    Underpowering = giving a sub less power than it can handle
    Distortion = driving an amp into clipping
    We cannot say "if a sub is underpowered, then it is distorted", nor can we say "if a sub is distorted, then it is underpowered". Therefore, both statements are false. I can give a 500Wrms sub a clean 400Wrms all day and all night... it won't blow. I can also clip a 1000Wrms amp into a 500Wrms sub. It will have two reasons to blow... but I'm just trying to prove the point.
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • beenthere
    beenthere Posts: 34
    edited July 2004
    AFAIK, no one said:

    "if a sub is underpowered, then it is distorted", nor can we say "if a sub is distorted, then it is underpowered"

    Perhaps this is a misunderstanding of the postings???

    If someone did say that I apologize, as I must have missed it.

    Exalted512 seems to have missed that the discussion specifically is in reference to a lower power (than practical) amp having the gain cranked up to achieve the desired sound level, which causes clipping. When the gain is cranked and the signal distorts, then the speaker dies, as you know. And the reason why it's recommended to turn the gain down on a small amp is to prevent the distorted signal from ever occurring.

    With a higher output amp, there is no need to crank the gain up to achieve the sound level most enthusiasts desire. Therefore the higher powered amp does not generate a distorted signal and the speaker does not die, unless you crank the volume excessively high and distort the "speaker" by over-powering it.

    But you know all this, so what's the point???

    ;)
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  • LittleCar_w/12s
    LittleCar_w/12s Posts: 568
    edited July 2004
    Originally posted by bknauss
    Underpowering = giving a sub less power than it can handle
    Distortion = driving an amp into clipping
    We cannot say "if a sub is underpowered, then it is distorted", nor can we say "if a sub is distorted, then it is underpowered". Therefore, both statements are false. I can give a 500Wrms sub a clean 400Wrms all day and all night... it won't blow. I can also clip a 1000Wrms amp into a 500Wrms sub. It will have two reasons to blow... but I'm just trying to prove the point.

    This plus my math earlier is all I'm going to post on this thread... we all know we are right, just arguing about who said it in the right terms....
    -Jerry
    ___________________________
    Total cost of materials: Going up...
    Time spent: Countless Hours...
    Cranking the system, having it quiet outside the car, and sound that takes the rear-view off inside: PRICELESS

    For some things in life, you pay others to do it... For a masterpeice, do it yourself.
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  • Airplay355
    Airplay355 Posts: 4,298
    edited July 2004
    yea :) so lets all go blast our systems and get over it
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  • beenthere
    beenthere Posts: 34
    edited July 2004
    I wondered why everyone kept posting their version on the subject... I kept saying to myself, didn't we already agree on that??? I thought I musta missed something along the way, but I guess not!

    ;)
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  • exalted512
    exalted512 Posts: 10,735
    edited July 2004
    Originally posted by Airplay355

    and altec you are insane if you think underpowering a sub does nothing....it is much easier to blow ANY driver by underpowering it and playing it loudly then it is to overpower it and play it loudly. the power handling ratings are RMS, so you CAN power a sub with more watts then its rated at. you will fry your sub if you underpower it and turn it up loud, that pushes the amp into clipping which is distortion, which cooks ur subs.
    this is what im arguing about
    this is WRONG...well, half wrong
    ;)
    not trying to start an argument here...i have nothing against any of you...we all are here for the same reason...car audio

    what you guys fail to recognize...that just because you underpower a speaker, doesnt mean you HAVE TO TURN THE GAINS UP

    beenthere-"Under-powering WITHOUT SENDING A DISTORTED SIGNAL to the speakers will NOT fry a speaker"
    thats 100% correct...youve hit the nail on the head!
    you my friend, deserve a cookie:)

    me-"underpowering a speaker WILL NOT KILL IT
    not only will it not kill it, chances are IT WILL LAST LONGER
    the only thing that will kill it is feeding it power that is distorted"

    now is it me, or are both of these statements the exact same, but in different words?

    you guys are all saying...that if you have a 50 watt speaker, and a 25 watt amp, then you automatically have to turn the gain up to its maximum, or close to it
    come on guys, thats not a very valid argument

    if you like your music loud, then no matter what, youre always going to want to get more out of your amps
    so in turn, you can have a 50 watt amp and speaker, and going by you guys--since you think no matter what...everyone wants it louder, youre going to turn the gain up

    the speaker is going to die
    you turned the gain up because you wanted it louder
    and it died
    end of story, thank you

    point being...whether or not you have an amp below, at, or above the RMS of the speaker, if you set the gain appropiately, you will not kill the speaker

    just because you dont have an amp that will give your speaker its RMS, DOES NOT mean you have to clip the amp

    please feel free, actually, im asking you to quote anything you said that you feel is wrong...i will be more than happy to prove to you im not, or fess up and admit that i was wrong
    :):):)
    -Cody
    Music is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it
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  • MacLeod
    MacLeod Posts: 14,358
    edited July 2004
    I think what they may have been saying is that if you have a 50 watt speaker and a 25 watt amp, you are more likely to push the amp into clipping and thus the speaker assumes room temperature.

    Not that if you have a 25 watt amp youre going to automatically crank the gain all the way to max. But if you have a 75 watt amp then in order to get the music to the desired level youll be pushing the amp not nearly as hard and thus much lower distortion and less chance of clipping.

    So whats my point? Dont know. But I think what Im saying is that underpowering a speaker in and of itself will not kill it but it will make it more likely that you will push the amp into clipping and then youll kill the speaker. Now if granny gets a 25 watt amp and listens to the Lawrence Welk Orchestra at a a low level then that speaker will live forever. But if Cody gets in and uses an impact wrench to crank up the volume on his Disturbed CD then the little amp will probably implode and take the speaker with it.
    polkaudio sound quality competitor since 2005
    MECA SQ Rookie of the Year 06 ~ MECA State Champ 06,07,08,11 ~ MECA World Finals 2nd place 06,07,08,09
    08 Car Audio Nationals 1st ~ 07 N Georgia Nationals 1st ~ 06 Carl Casper Nationals 1st ~ USACi 05 Southeast AutumnFest 1st

    polkaudio SR6500 --- polkaudio MM1040 x2 -- Pioneer P99 -- Rockford Fosgate P1000X5D
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  • Airplay355
    Airplay355 Posts: 4,298
    edited July 2004
    lets find some speakers to blow to test out what we r saying :D
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  • beenthere
    beenthere Posts: 34
    edited July 2004
    The obvious point was most people do crank the gain with an under-power amp, do send a distorted signal and do kill the Sub(s). So the FAQs and people here are suggesting use the proper sized amp, set the gain properly, and don't blow the speakers. A larger sized amp eliminates any "need" for someone to crank the gain high enough for a distorted signal to ever occur. The sound level will be high enough without excessive gain because the amp has the proper RMS to power the speaker. Could they still fry the speakers - sure, any fool could intentionally crank the gain too high and blow the speakers.

    It's not that either amp is the issue, it's how one USES the amp. And we all know LOUD is King, so better to have the larger amp set properly than an under-sized amp improperly set that fries the speaker(s) from a distorted signal.

    Bottom line: Buy the proper sized amp, set the gain properly = excellent sound and no fried speakers. Buy an under-sized amp, crank the gain to get LOUD = blow speakers, be very unhappy!

    Very straight forward.

    ;)
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  • exalted512
    exalted512 Posts: 10,735
    edited July 2004
    airplay...ive blown a lot...haha
    my most recent was last week...too much power and yanked the lead off the terminal
    and just because i love to argue with people...how many ppl do you think power their coaxials from the headunit and not blow their speakres?
    my dad for one
    he has DB coaxials rated at 60...the JVC headunit he has puts out about 17 watts...
    ;)
    -Cody
    Music is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it
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  • beenthere
    beenthere Posts: 34
    edited July 2004
    He needs at least a 1000W amp to run those coaxials... I know I read it on Polk's Audio forum !

    ;)
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  • MacLeod
    MacLeod Posts: 14,358
    edited July 2004
    Yeah, Ive never heard of anyone blowing speakers off a head unit either.

    However, I think the reason for that is that a head unit is so dirty and distorted that it would sound really bad way before it ever reached clipping so most people stop turning up the volume before it gets to that point where as an amp wont sound as bad right up to the point of clipping.
    polkaudio sound quality competitor since 2005
    MECA SQ Rookie of the Year 06 ~ MECA State Champ 06,07,08,11 ~ MECA World Finals 2nd place 06,07,08,09
    08 Car Audio Nationals 1st ~ 07 N Georgia Nationals 1st ~ 06 Carl Casper Nationals 1st ~ USACi 05 Southeast AutumnFest 1st

    polkaudio SR6500 --- polkaudio MM1040 x2 -- Pioneer P99 -- Rockford Fosgate P1000X5D
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  • exalted512
    exalted512 Posts: 10,735
    edited July 2004
    Originally posted by beenthere
    He needs at least a 1000W amp to run those coaxials... I know I read it on Polk's Audio forum !

    ;)
    actually...id be willing to bet that some of Pyle's '1000 watt amps' probably put out about the RMS power of a pair of DB coaxials...lol
    -Cody
    Music is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it
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  • Airplay355
    Airplay355 Posts: 4,298
    edited July 2004
    i don't understand car audio watts, 1000 watts is enough to shoot your tweeters at you, but in a car you arent a pimp till you have a couple thousand watts in ur car.....100 good clean watts will have u set in the HT world.

    this is definitely in the wrong thread but i just started thinkin about it since u guys brought up watts lol
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  • exalted512
    exalted512 Posts: 10,735
    edited July 2004
    its because when you slide the windows down in your house you dont have wind coming in at 70 MPH:)
    anyone can do HT...it takes skill for car audio
    :cool: j/k...well, only half;)
    -Cody
    Music is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it
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  • beenthere
    beenthere Posts: 34
    edited July 2004
    Do you mean it takes skill to install car audio while driving 70 mph??? ;) Yeah, I heard that !

    Are car speakers 4 ohm resistance and HT 8 ohm because of the wind resistance in a moving car???
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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited July 2004
    Originally posted by Airplay355
    i don't understand car audio watts, 1000 watts is enough to shoot your tweeters at you, but in a car you arent a pimp till you have a couple thousand watts in ur car.....100 good clean watts will have u set in the HT world.

    this is definitely in the wrong thread but i just started thinkin about it since u guys brought up watts lol

    -You've got a ton of noises to contend with in a car.
    -There are generally lots of things in the way of the speakers to diminish the loudness... seats, people, etc
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • MacLeod
    MacLeod Posts: 14,358
    edited July 2004
    Well the 1000's of watts is usually for the subs. Most speakers only get 100-150. There are some lunatics out there {coughCodycough} that like to run 250 to the mids and highs but those types of guys {coughCodycough} are rare. Most of us normal people run systems below a kilowatt. :p
    polkaudio sound quality competitor since 2005
    MECA SQ Rookie of the Year 06 ~ MECA State Champ 06,07,08,11 ~ MECA World Finals 2nd place 06,07,08,09
    08 Car Audio Nationals 1st ~ 07 N Georgia Nationals 1st ~ 06 Carl Casper Nationals 1st ~ USACi 05 Southeast AutumnFest 1st

    polkaudio SR6500 --- polkaudio MM1040 x2 -- Pioneer P99 -- Rockford Fosgate P1000X5D
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  • beenthere
    beenthere Posts: 34
    edited July 2004
    Mac you're just missing out on all the fun... Don't you like to rattle the windows and peoples teeth in the cars you pass by???

    ;)
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  • exalted512
    exalted512 Posts: 10,735
    edited July 2004
    yeah well...those rare guys also blow a lot of speakers and spend more time fixing than listening:D
    i took my sub box out when i was building the box...its only been 2 days and im about on the verge of insanity without my bass...
    i even put the fade to where i can actually hear the rear speakers now...
    that plus i dont have a working mid on the drivers side anymore...
    -Cody
    Music is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it
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  • beenthere
    beenthere Posts: 34
    edited July 2004
    Some people are more into box building than audio... ;)
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  • exalted512
    exalted512 Posts: 10,735
    edited July 2004
    heh...im not one of those ppl...the box is going back in in a few minutes or so
    i dread putting the damn thing back in...it weighs 80lbs and isnt exactly the easiest thing in the world to actually get in the truck anyway...
    -Cody
    Music is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it
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  • beenthere
    beenthere Posts: 34
    edited July 2004
    Heavy Duty... Speakers ! ;)
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