Security with A.I.
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treitz3
Posts: 20,339
This is approaching face palm territory. You guys are giving Cyberdyne and Skynet the keys to infiltrating your homes.
I am curious. This was a quote taken off of another thread. How would talking about your system give these cats any leverage, over what many people know anyway?
We all talk about our rigs, preferences and gear. So what if Chat GPT or another type of A.I. type chat bot (or whatever they are called) knows about your system?
How can they get past the security settings one already has in place, compared to what your phone monitors on a minute by minute basis?
Heck, I can talk about grills 3 times, with my phone turned off, and the next time I log on to FB? I have 4 ads for grills on my feed.
What is the difference and why should I even bother to care? Please elaborate.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
Comments
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Agreed @treitz3. I’ve been using different forms of AI for years. I also spent a couple of years consulting with a team, at my last employer, that focused on designing/building/configuring bots.
I feel that some don’t understand the power and ways to work with it. My background is in solution development and I’m very analytical. I think this helps in the conversations I have with the bots. Its ability to scour the web is invaluable.2 Channel Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II, 2 REL T9x, Norma Revo IPA-140B, Norma Revo DAC-2, Lumin U2 Mini, VPI Prime w/SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC, ModWright PH-150, SonoruS ATR10, AudioQuest Niagara 7000 w/Dragon power cable, WAY power cables for all other sources, WAY Silver 3 Ana+ speaker cables, WAY interconnect cables -
Its ability to scour the web is invaluable.
Given the right questions, I agree. The quickness of the results versus chasing the same thing on your own saves invaluable time. One just needs to know what it can and cannot do.
The speed in which it comes up with things/results is at times, incredible. On so many facets of life. One just needs to use it wisely and know the limitations. IMO, of course.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Tom, I think you have lost the ability to read a joke. Do you not recognize the company names from the Terminator series?See profile for rigs. Nothing else here.
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I have never watched that. Sorry. I don't really do TV. I listen to music.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
They are Blockbuster movies from 35+ years ago. They defined our generation. Really? Ahl be bach!See profile for rigs. Nothing else here.
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They are Blockbuster movies from 35+ years ago. They defined our generation. Really? Ahl be bach!
Don't forget that the CDC is just the Umbrella Corporation under a different name
"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Now days we have to be extremely careful due to personal information that can be acquired from our personal computers.
Cover that in built camera.
Anyone who manages to get into mine will instantly crash theirs with 15 million terabytes of granny p--n.
I don't know why but whilst reading this post , Hymie out of get smart enters my mellon.
Don't get Tom going, if he he hears a decent theatre system with lossless 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby True HD tracks with a fantastic musical score ,he'll want more I bet : )
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Nope. I am just a 2 channel guy. That's all I need and want.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Now days we have to be extremely careful due to personal information that can be acquired from our personal computers.
Cover that in built camera.
I've taped over all my laptop cameras. They can listen but not watch.2ch rig: Speakers: Magnepan LRS w/Magna Riser stands Preamplifier: Parasound P5 DAC: Fiio K13 Amplifier: Parasound A23 CDP: Pioneer DV-563A Cables: Wireworld Equinox 7 XLR ICs, Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 USB, AudioQuest Q2s, AudioQuest NRG X(preamp)
Standby: LSi9s with VR3's Fortress mods -
Nope. I am just a 2 channel guy. That's all I need and want.
Tom
Tom, clearly you are in denial, or under a rock. A properly setup and calibrated Atmos setup will blow your mind with the clarity and placement of sound in the room. Maybe you are avoiding exposure? It's not a better or worse thing, but just a different experience.See profile for rigs. Nothing else here. -
It's one that I do not prefer. None of them. Now, if every album I have was recorded just for that format and specifically for that format? I might change my mind. Until then, I still prefer, and by a wide margin, 2 channels.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Nothing wrong with a decent dedicated HT rig/room. I enjoy mine immensely.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
It's one that I do not prefer. None of them. Now, if every album I have was recorded just for that format and specifically for that format? I might change my mind. Until then, I still prefer, and by a wide margin, 2 channels.
Tom
We aren't talking about albums, we are talking about a theater experience for movies, but I suspect you know that.See profile for rigs. Nothing else here. -
Well, not exclusively. SACD and DVD-AUDIO had some very good sonic envelopment. Pink Floyd money for reference. The cash register cha-chinging through each speaker one at a time at the start of the song. Elton John's SACD's were very well mastered in surround sound. As well as others, those are just off the top of my head.It's one that I do not prefer. None of them. Now, if every album I have was recorded just for that format and specifically for that format? I might change my mind. Until then, I still prefer, and by a wide margin, 2 channels.
Tom
We aren't talking about albums, we are talking about a theater experience for movies, but I suspect you know that.
There are very good mastered two channel systems which I love. To just poo poo surround as a gimmick is very naive.
There's room for both! -
I don't want to go with my patented "Wall of Text" here. I mean, I CAN 'cause this is the main wheel house where I've made my living for the past 20 years now is data and network security. So I'll address some of this stuff and hopefully it sparks conversation instead of a lecture. But these questions do not have simple answers so apologies because it gets thick.
So, while Bill said this was in jest, satire is always based in truth otherwise the humor is lost.
Talking about your stereo rig doesn't give them much leverage against you. What it does is it gives them aggregated keywords to be able to focus advertising to you. That, in and of itself, is harmless. Annoying but harmless. It's no different than sitting in a roadside diner talking to your wife on the phone about how your shower curtain just broke and a shower curtain ring salesman a couple stools over overhears your and starts a sales pitch. There's a higher percentage chance that you will be an engaged customer that will close on a sales deal because you have a specific need for what that sales guy is selling.
Does this help you? Maybe, depends on you. Does this help them? Most definitely. Why? Because, if I now know through my digital eavesdropping that you and at least one other person are now interested in a new turntable. If I can create an advertisement focus group of people that are 50% more likely, statistically, to be buying a new turntable in the next 1-3 months then instead of selling ad space access to you for $10 a head, I can now charge $25 a head. Because I have a specific group of turntable advertisers and you have a significantly higher percentage of statistical probability that can be shown in real numbers to buy a new turntable soon. So I can fleece the turntable advertisers on the ad costs because I can guarantee that 2 out of 5 people they advertise to in this focus group will buy a turntable whereas it's .25 out of 10 in the typical shotgun advertising.
Again, annoying but harmless. Just companies competing for your dollar.
But, the problem comes in when data brokers get that same data. The ones collecting the data aren't so scrupulous with who they sell it to. And even if they are, if they sell it to someone and that someone resells it to someone else, that someone else may not be as careful with that data as the primary collector is.We all talk about our rigs, preferences and gear. So what if Chat GPT or another type of A.I. type chat bot (or whatever they are called) knows about your system?
This is where those data brokers come in. If an AI bot is being "taught" stuff and it either stumbles on a data dump from a data leak or a data broker's repository for sale, it can consume, very rapidly, all of that data. Where it goes and what it's used for after that is...yeah.
So, for example, lots of states are passing laws about "dynamic pricing" now. Have you heard about this? Basically, with all this AI stuff out there and the petabytes of data collected on everyone globally, they are using AI, facial recognition and the ability to get account info from stuff like your cellphone or the credit cards in your wallet to be able to build a profile on you.
So, if you are shopping for, I dunno, peanut butter, right? You go to the store and some lady is there and she says "$1.29! What a deal for that Skippy!" And you're like, "A dollar twenty nine? Dang Skippy! Imma get me some of that!" You get to the shelf and the digital shelf tag now says $4.29. WTF?
That's because the aggregated data on you says that you're "rich" and whether you are willing to pay it or not, they are going to charge you more because you can afford it while dollar twenty nine woman is on food stamps and can't. So she gets the premium product for a lower price and you, Mr. Richie Rich, get to swallow the WHOLE cost PLUS the difference on her Skippy peanut butter. This, in turn, increases sales numbers while maintaining margins. Otherwise, food stamps lady would pass over the Skippy for the Great Value instead. Dynamic pricing means Skippy sells more peanut butter and sees the same profits by just extracting it from the better off customers to compensate for the people who can only afford Great Value at $2.19 a jar instead of Skippy at $3.59 a jar. So you pay for your whole jar of Skippy and half of hers and Skippy sells two jars of peanut butter at full price when they would have just sold 1 jar at full price and Great Value would have gotten the other sale. What's worse is that if you decide screw that and go get the Great Value, they'll change that price to $3.29 and you get to overpay for that too.
All because they aggregated data on you and built a profile to leverage against you.
That's just the supermarket too. Imagine what your government will do with stuff like Flock Cameras and license plate readers? 'Cause even though they swear up and down until the cows come home that they aren't taking pictures of people and storing it, they are still reading your license plate and cross-referencing with every governmental database out there. So they most definitely are tracking you and anything they say to the contrary is Wizard of Oz levels of subterfuge and distraction. And yes, this technology absolutely exists.How can they get past the security settings one already has in place, compared to what your phone monitors on a minute by minute basis?
They get past the security settings by running software that actively looks for open networks that they can use to contact the mothership and data dump. Even if you have it restricted. This is part of what this whole thing with LG TVs is about.
They don't even have to use a WiFi connection. If your buddy comes over and has an open Bluetooth connection that's sharing his cell data so he doesn't have to constantly reconnect his kid's Little Einstein player when he's running around the house with it, he's creating a vulnerability. He comes over with his hotspot still active and shared out and your fridge or TV or espresso maker finds it, it can connect to it despite your home network being locked down and deliver it's data payload.
Should appliances be able to do that? Honestly, no. It's a gross violation of privacy laws. But I have actively found appliances doing exactly that at friends' houses.
So even if you have your appliances not allowed to get to the Internet, that doesn't mean they won't. If they find a network available like xfinitywifi or your buddy's cellular hotspot on a Bluetooth share, that you do not control, they can drop your network, leverage the open network and then jump back on to your network when done because they have your network credentials cached to be able to recover from something like a power outage.
It's hard to control from the appliance because you don't necessarily have access to the firmware and you can't trust the soft controls in the firmware. Especially if your stuff is made in China.
This freaks out security people because, those appliances often have shoddy firmware that's loaded with backdoors that can now create security risks on your otherwise locked down network. They can leave a back door open that a nefarious evil doer can use to get in and nefariously do evil. Or, turn all of your "Internet of Things" in to cryto-currency mining nodes or something.Heck, I can talk about grills 3 times, with my phone turned off, and the next time I log on to FB? I have 4 ads for grills on my feed.
I think from the above, it's obvious how this happens at this point.
Expert Moron Extraordinaire
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you! -
What is the difference and why should I even bother to care? Please elaborate.
Tom
You should care because for the vast majority of us, we have security through obscurity. We're a bunch of nobodies. Broke schlubs with nothing of value in the grand scheme of things. But, if you get your networking gear from, say, TP-Link and there's an issue with an exploit and someone finds it, you might be a nobody and a single one of you isn't worth while.
But if I know that a TP-Link router has a certain vulnerability that a simple SSH command can expose, I can write a script that scans entire subnets for that vulnerability and collect a list of all those people with that exploitable TP-Link router. Now instead of one schlub worth barely anything, I have a thousand of them and now, that's a value worth exploiting.
The problem with AI bots now is that I don't even have to know how to do that. Generative AI bots can create that script, build a list of subnets to check and be ready to go with a scan for that exploit in the blink of an eye. You just have to know how to ask it. You can even get it to set up the bot net you need to be able to leverage that exploit and steal a bunch of stuff from everyone who is compromised. Yeah, sure, ChatGPT and others have controls in place to limit that but, I don't need to use ChatGPT. ChatGPT is just a product that OpenAI runs. It's built on their GPT-6 Engine and Large Language Model. I can license that engine for my own use and I'm not necessarily restricted by ChatGPT's terms of service because I don't have ChatGPT. I have the GPT-6 Engine and LLM and if I have enough hardware, I can build my own AI with that and it will do whatever I want.
That's scary.
And that's what's happening too 'cause when you start look at where the AI models were in 2018 and the exponential explosion of Large Language Models since 2018 you can clearly see how many AI engines are out there and that's just what's known.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large_language_models
There's a number that are out there that they know are active but they have no data on them 'cause they're run by places like China or Iran or Russia. And China's is getting sloppy because we are finding it everywhere now and it's behind a massive propaganda campaign to do things like sow FUD around data centers and sensationalize the tiniest bit of negative news and blow it out of proportion. Not just around AI and data centers either but politics, news, religion, social trends, etc. And it's working, unfortunately.
So caring means that you hear about something like TP Link in the news and you take heed. 'Cause that TP Link example? Unfortunately that's not an example but a very real use case that broke this past summer with ties to Russian espionage efforts against Ukraine in an effort to neutralize and gather intelligence on Ukraine's drones. Actually Russian espionage, not fake dossiers. Anyway, you take heed, check your network gear and see if it's affected. If it is, get rid of it and get new stuff.
'Cause all you need is one sweaty guy in Murmansk that smells like cigarettes and lutefisk finding out from a stolen data aggregation database that you like very high end turntables and you, Mr. Richie Rich, might have something worth stealing through your compromised TP Link router. Does that mean you should stop talking about your hobby? No, not at all. It does mean, though, that you, me, everyone can't be ignorant anymore. Diligence and awareness is the name of the game now and even if you don't understand it, find someone who can help you understand it and make educated decisions.
And maybe next time, don't get your networking gear from Amazon.
Oh and smart appliances are pretty stupid and if you can't find one that isn't smart then figure out where the antenna is and disable it. 'Cause there's no reason for a fridge to be running a web server and broadcasting an SSID.Expert Moron Extraordinaire
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you! -
I guess I did go "Wall of Text".
Sorry.
Anyway, ask questions. I'll answer them. It's doubtful that anyone will ask a question about this data/network/AI security stuff that I can't address so fire away.Expert Moron Extraordinaire
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you! -
Always great info you let loose from time to time.
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The world has changed/sped up so much in the last 15 years. Nothing surprises me anymore. That’s a lot of good information. We really need to be careful about stuff. Data breach, hackers, you hear it all the time. It makes me think about being a little more cautious.👍
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Thanks for taking the time to type all of that out, John. Honestly, I am more worried about someone stealing my identity and taking out 5 mortgages on my house, then finding out near foreclosure that it happened.
Most of my audio purchases these days are made by speaking directly to the designer or manufacturer, and I just buy direct through them, sometimes at a reduced rate. So I don't see how AI could infiltrate an already agreed upon price. Most all of my groceries are through Sam's Club (fixed pricing for business members), so while they may get me on some items, the most expensive ones (audio purchases), I don't see how they could affect pricing, although I may be nieve to think that. I just don't know how they could alter the prices.
I have no smart appliances. But the guest coming over aspect was enlightening. That is definitely a vulnerability!
Question - would it matter if they were only allowed on my guest network? Or are we just as vulnerable?
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
The world has changed/sped up so much in the last 15 years. Nothing surprises me anymore. That’s a lot of good information. We really need to be careful about stuff. Data breach, hackers, you hear it all the time. It makes me think about being a little more cautious.👍
You being careful is a small percentage of risk. All it takes is one dipstick in a hurry to click on something sent in an email that looks legit and walla intrusion.
Here is my example. My company decided to stop doing a lot of stuff in house. We printed our own W2 and banking and billing stuff for decades. Then the company hired 2 external companies one was Hewitt, the other I forget. BOTH companies came back and told us we could farm it out but they both suggested the risk far out weighed the savings and stated our company was doing everything to protect out employee and customer identification. Basically the only savings was the cost of the employees losing their jobs and health insurance.
They decided to farm it out anyway. Three years in the company we went with and made jump through a TON of security hoops to be sure, as sure as we could be that they followed OUR plan of procedures for security to protect the very sensitive data. You know SS numbers, birthdates and payroll information. Well the 4th year they decided to farm it out to another company WHO in turn farmed it out to a third company to process all this super sensitive information. Guess what? The final company LOST all the information to an intrusion, not only ours but other companies as well.
Sure they (dirtbag company) gave us some sort of identity theft protection for ONE F'n year. Big whoop! The identity info is PLATINUM to thousands of scumbags.
It has been a nightmare to put it mildly. The company we originally went with threw up that NOTHING in the contract between us prohibited them from doing just what they did.
You'd better believe the next contract we signed with them we put in all kinds of stipulations that they could not farm out anything to a second third or fourth party. Unfortunately the damage was already done.
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Thanks for taking the time to type all of that out, John. Honestly, I am more worried about someone stealing my identity and taking out 5 mortgages on my house, then finding out near foreclosure that it happened.
Most of my audio purchases these days are made by speaking directly to the designer or manufacturer, and I just buy direct through them, sometimes at a reduced rate. So I don't see how AI could infiltrate an already agreed upon price. Most all of my groceries are through Sam's Club (fixed pricing for business members), so while they may get me on some items, the most expensive ones (audio purchases), I don't see how they could affect pricing, although I may be nieve to think that. I just don't know how they could alter the prices.
I have no smart appliances. But the guest coming over aspect was enlightening. That is definitely a vulnerability!
Question - would it matter if they were only allowed on my guest network? Or are we just as vulnerable?
Tom
Tom, the dynamic pricing issue is for any online purchases. Amazon, Walmart, Costco, Sam's, Target, food delivery, Uber, Hotels, Flights, Theater tickets, Ticketmaster, you name it! It could also be applied to things like insurance premiums (which already factor credit scores). It is infuriating. I hope it gets more attention and hopefully we eventually have a nationwide ban.
Do a little research into the topic and you might change your mind about some of these evolving technologies.
See profile for rigs. Nothing else here. -
Ivan, don't get me wrong. I wasn't poo-pooing surround, quad, Atmos or any of the other types of sound reproduction. Lots of people like those types of formats for playback. What I am saying is that they are not for me.
One of the best I have heard was a Phil Collins album on surround sound at a local dealer decades ago. Sounded cool, but gimmicky to me. Case in point, some kf the instruments were off to my side and behind me. That sounded cool, but wasn't realistic to me.
Another one was a 6 speaker setup in a way that I forgeet the setup name (forgive me, I am getting old), and it sounded great. Right up until the point to where the helicopter flew from left to right, overhead, on a certain Pink Floyd song.
I stead of being a consistent flight over the room, it began correctly, then was pushed further back, then toward the right side of the sound stage, came back to where it was supposed to be. This, to me was unacceptable, because it didn't sound real. It wasn't natural to me.
This is how I would personally describe all of the other formats I have heard beyond stereo. Are they cool and do that offer a different perspective? Absolutely!
They just are not for me. I prefer stereo. It's not that I am nieve, it's just that I don't like (or prefer) anything other than stereo. To me, stereo is the most convincing sound that does not sound fake, unreal, gimmicky or altered. To me, it just sounds right, even with its limitations.
To each there own. I thourougly enjoy what I listen to, and I have no desire whatsoever to ever change that, unless I introduce surround into my my very modest LR system.
Please forgive any typos. My gorilla fingers on even a large phone presents...let's just say, challeges.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
The world has changed/sped up so much in the last 15 years. Nothing surprises me anymore. That’s a lot of good information. We really need to be careful about stuff. Data breach, hackers, you hear it all the time. It makes me think about being a little more cautious.👍
The identity info is PLATINUM to thousands of scumbags.
You know, despite the orders of magnitude difference in scarcity for Platinum, the value of Gold has significantly outgained Platinum over the last 10 years, much to my frustration when I wanted melt value for my Platinum wedding ring, which was double the cost of Gold back in 2004.
See profile for rigs. Nothing else here. -
You win!
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You win!
Wasn't a competition, just sharing the experience of this warped economy.See profile for rigs. Nothing else here. -
I do find dynamic pricing (somewhat) laughable, IMO/IME.
Here is why. Just hear me out, before you blast me. Folks I talk to about certain products share the same pricing as I do. To the penny. So, I still don't see how dynamic pricing, even if it is real and a thing, affects me.
Not confronting. Just being honest.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
This guy actually proves the pricing variance. He calls it surveillance pricing.
https://youtu.be/tCSwx9LZtD8?is=3xQLK_3Sbo5Fq0Pb See profile for rigs. Nothing else here. -
Very interesting 👍
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Thanks for taking the time to type all of that out, John. Honestly, I am more worried about someone stealing my identity and taking out 5 mortgages on my house, then finding out near foreclosure that it happened.
Freeze all your credit. After the Equifax breach in 2014 (IIR), we froze all of our credit. even with lesser known bureaus.
Equifax, Transunion, Experian, Chex systems, and Innovis. There may be more I forgot.
I can't even get my own credit report without unlocking one of them.
That's enough to stop anyone trying to get a mortgages or car loan in our names. Not much else you can do.
