Amp discussion

denis87

http://www.caraudio.com/vb/showthread.php?t=42474&page=4&pp=15&highlight=polk

i read this post on a different forum and just wanted to know what you guys thought.
if the link doesn't work just search "cleanest amplifier" for the post in the forum.

exalted512

its true
under like 3-5% distortion is for the most part, not audible in components and 8-10% distortion is for the most part, not audible in subs
-Cody

denis87

basically when looking for an amp you look for wattage (an amp that actually puts out what it's rated or more), features, looks for some people, and durability. i honestly never knew that. i believed all that thd marketing crap when really i could never hear it.

denis87

so then basically what amps actually put out what they rated? i wonder if those birth sheets are just a marketing ploy too.

exalted512

theres a lot...
rf, mtx, hifonics, alpine, kenwood, pioneer...the list could go on forever
-Cody

TrappedUnder Ice

THD has always been kind of a marketing ploy.- same with power rating...However...If your running an ultra SQ system... it can make audible diff...but usually not from thd.
More important specs are Channel seperation, damping factor and s/n ratio. Also the quality of the Xover is what makes a 1000 dollar amp worth more then a 200 dollar amp.

I mean ...an amp does that...It amplifies a signal. How you do it and quality parts is what justifies the cost. :cool:

AustinKP

That was a pretty good thread if you can ignore the idiots who refused to remove their foot from their mouth. The reason so many SQ competitions are won by the expensive brands is probably 2 reasons (doctrine according to Austin):

1. The guys who are capable of doing great SQ installs are under the same false impression of most car audio guys that more expensive amps provide better SQ because of hundredths of a percent less THD (psychoacoustics)

2. They know that the Judges are influenced by their eyes (and price tag) as much as they are by their ears. Built-in crossovers, etc. influence amp decisions, but to a lesser degree since many competitors are using external crossovers, eq's, etc anyway.

Thus, according to me, there should never be a question of whether MTX's SQ is better than HiFonics or TruTech or McIntosh. The questions should be more of: Which amp will give me the power I need? Which is cheaper? Reliability? Size reqs? Onboard features, i.e. crossovers, bass boost, eq, etc? The SQ will be identical for all of them if there is no processing. The reason cheap amps aren't recommended is because they use cheap components that break easily and they don't produce nearly their recommended power, thus clip when pushed past their limit and distorting.

bknauss

Originally posted by TrappedUnder Ice
THD has always been kind of a marketing ploy.- same with power rating...However...If your running an ultra SQ system... it can make audible diff...but usually not from thd.
More important specs are Channel seperation, damping factor and s/n ratio. Also the quality of the Xover is what makes a 1000 dollar amp worth more then a 200 dollar amp.

I mean ...an amp does that...It amplifies a signal. How you do it and quality parts is what justifies the cost. :cool:

THD is definitely not a marketing ploy. If anything, it creates a reference for power ratings and at how much distortion those power ratings were achieved. If there wasn't such a thing as THD, people would be able to claim their head units were able to do 60Wx4... oh wait... they did. Just wait for everyone to switch over to the CEA2006 standards and all measurements will be more or less the same across the board, from all companies.

A quality x-over doesn't really seperate a $1000 amp from a $200 one. If you compare most amps, they all have a 12dB or 24dB slope crossover, and they're generally pretty accurate. The things that make an amp better are:
-quality components
-chassis
-quality of the PCB
-many other things, ESPECIALLY engineering

bknauss

Originally posted by AustinKP
That was a pretty good thread if you can ignore the idiots who refused to remove their foot from their mouth. The reason so many SQ competitions are won by the expensive brands is probably 2 reasons (doctrine according to Austin):

1. The guys who are capable of doing great SQ installs are under the same false impression of most car audio guys that more expensive amps provide better SQ because of hundredths of a percent less THD (psychoacoustics)

2. They know that the Judges are influenced by their eyes (and price tag) as much as they are by their ears. Built-in crossovers, etc. influence amp decisions, but to a lesser degree since many competitors are using external crossovers, eq's, etc anyway.

Thus, according to me, there should never be a question of whether MTX's SQ is better than HiFonics or TruTech or McIntosh. The questions should be more of: Which amp will give me the power I need? Which is cheaper? Reliability? Size reqs? Onboard features, i.e. crossovers, bass boost, eq, etc? The SQ will be identical for all of them if there is no processing. The reason cheap amps aren't recommended is because they use cheap components that break easily and they don't produce nearly their recommended power, thus clip when pushed past their limit and distorting.

Excellent post. I'm sure as soon as the judges step into a car and see "Polk", there are points deducted right away in the judges mind... whether it is concious or not. But this topic has been discussed many times over by competitors.

MacLeod

Look at Gary Biggs. He has won more SQ contests than you can shake a stick at and he did it with Kicker amps!! Yes thats right. No Xtant, Brax, Audiosn or Zapco. Kicker! Now hes whoopin up on everybody and hes using JBL amps! Thats even worse!!

I think that all things being equal, all amps sound the same. Its when things become unequal is when youll know where your money went.

For instance, when you play your music really loud for a really long time and it dishes out a lot of punishment from the amp. A lesser amp will overheat, spit out audible distortion, catch on fire, etc. A quality amp will be much more durable.

Youll notice a big difference whenever there is a frequency spike like a hard slap of a snare drum. A better built, more powerful amp will produce it with more authority whereas a lesser amp wont.

Just because one amp makes 50x2 and another does too doesnt mean theyre going to be equal. Take an Alpine V Power 50x2 and a RF Punch 50x2. The RF will be a lot more powerful sounding and youll notice a difference in percusion most of all. You can look at the 2 ohm specs and see. The Alpine is 50x2 at 4ohms and 70x2 at 2. The RF is 50x2 and 100x2 respectively. You can see the RF has much more headroom and wont have to work as hard at making the 50. Thus less heat, distortion and better sound.


Bottom line I guess is that a more expensive amp will perform better. It wont necessarily sound better but will perform better overall.

bknauss

Kicker used to make quality product... then they decided to drop off the SQ map. If nothing else, you have to believe Biggs and Eldridge were both getting prototype amps that never made it to the stores. And now they're using JBL amps, but they're really Crown amps, probably the most known name in pro audio amps. Yea, those old BP amps suck (REALLY suck), but the new stuff from Crown is definitely quality stuff.

And if nothing else, name has just as much to do with winning as brand use.

MacLeod

No, Biggs was using KX 800.2 amps all around. Those were the same amps you could walk into any dealer and buy. Kind of makes ya think, huh? LOL

Personally, I feel that an amp is an amp as long as its from a quality manufactuer youre fine. I believe that speakers are the most important part of a system. Virtually all amps sound alike but I dont think Ive ever heard two speakers that sound the same!

bknauss

I can't confirm or deny exactly what amp he was using (and I think only a handful of people in the world really know what he was using), but Biggs and Eldridge have been known to do things like take pics of speakers for their install log, then have something completely different for the final install. I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's a good amount of deception in the sport

TrappedUnder Ice

I dont recall everyone driving kia's now? I mean...they are a car. why would you buy anything more? they both do the same job? I really cant tell the diff between a kia and my olds.

AustinKP

Originally posted by TrappedUnder Ice
I dont recall everyone driving kia's now? I mean...they are a car. why would you buy anything more? they both do the same job? I really cant tell the diff between a kia and my olds.

Huh? Maybe I'm not seeing the analogy. Maybe a kia will get you where you're going, but I'd rather drive a Ferrari

bknauss

Personally, I feel that an amp is an amp as long as its from a quality manufactuer youre fine.

Definitely a lot of truth to this. Yea, amps will have some sound differences, but when it comes down to it... its not going to be all that much if you're comparing two quality amps.

I dont recall everyone driving kia's now? I mean...they are a car. why would you buy anything more? they both do the same job? I really cant tell the diff between a kia and my olds.

Kia's might get the job done, but they're a LOT more likely to die very quickly. Who wants to spend the money for a car (or amp), then have to spend more money on repairs? Why not spend a little more at the outset, not have to worry about those repairs, and probably have the product last for as long as you want it to?

denis87

You can buy 2 cheap amps for less than 1 expensive amp. So when one goes up in smoke then you have a replacement. Although i want an amp that puts out consistent RMS power.

MacLeod

Yes, you could buy a Profile 100x2 for more than half the price of an Orion 100x2, but the Orion is going to outperform it all over the place.

The Orion will be less resistant to heat and generate less heat as well which means more power and lower distortion.

The Orion will make its 100 rms a lot easier than the Profile so, again, less distortion.

The Orion will virtually last forever, whereas you never know with the Profile.

The Orion will use much higher quality components which will result in longer life, lower distortion, more power.

For the most part, youll get what you pay for.

denis87

oh okay i see yeah there's so many cheap brands almost more than good brands. every company always tries to sell there stuff as the best and will last forever. imagine pyramid's slogan was "power that will last forever". lol

MacLeod

You have to hand it to Pyramid tho, theyve been around a long time. Back in the late 80's they were real popular with the people that didnt know **** about car audio (like me ) and theyre still around today! LOL

AustinKP

I've been thinking...(yes, dangerous, I know)
You know how everyone seems to say, "Back in the day, ABC brand was pretty good, but recently they've been going downhill..." What if it's really cause we are learning more about what a good amp really is, and we're finding out that our pet brands sucked all along and we didn't realize it? What if I took the blue pill and aliens are sucking my brains out??? (I realize that last sentence was completely random and worthless. I just wanted to say aliens were sucking my brains out. I got 4.5 hours of sleep last night and it's really getting to me )

TrappedUnder Ice

My point with the Car analogy was exactly that... while all amps do that... amplify a signal...they dont all do it the same...and they are not all of the same quality...