Interesting article about vacuum tubes

Clipdat · June 15

I learned a few things today from this article about tubes: https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/tubes-the-old-verses-the-new/

Even though it's primarily written from the angle of guitar amplifiers, there's still plenty of interesting tube history discussed. The author also goes into great detail about some of the things that make NOS tubes fundamentally different from new production tubes.

Check it out and see what you think, even if you only have a mild interest in tubes I believe you'll find it insightful.

VR3 · June 15

Great read

mhardy6647 · June 15

Tubes?! Them early 1900s things!?
You've got to be kidding me!

mhardy6647 · June 15

In seriousness, an interesting collection of information in that article. It seems fairly accurate and not misleading at a quick read.
I will note that computer triods might (!) be an untapped resource. They had relatively low plate voltage ratings, but they were built for full-time use as switches and as such were (i.e., should have been) far more rugged than their small signal linear amplifier cousins. I know that one local vacuum tube guru is staunchly of the opinion that the computer triodes, even with plate ratings of (IIRC) ca. 200-250 V, are probably beefy enough to withstand the operating conditions of a "normal" triode such as a 12AX7.
I haven't tested that hypothesis (despite having been encouraged to). I feel like Mikey sometimes.

pitdogg2 · June 15

If you take anything away from this article, this is it.

Along the way, manufacturers eventually forgot how to make a tube with a 10,000 hour cathode or a long-life rhenium-tungsten heater. They can’t make a high quality tube now, even if they wanted to—the knowledge and the machines that made those tubes is lost.

The vast sea of technical expertise and superior materials available in the 1960s were light years ahead of anything that exists today. If you could travel back in time and see it with your own eyes, you’d think you were on another planet—

These manufacturers and their scientists are long gone. They threw away all this knowledge because supposedly it was never going to be needed again.

I had a guy at Axpona who "supposedly" made their own tubes, for his own amps and preamps tell me how his tubes were made better with better materials yada, yada, yada.... He went on the state how much better his was than the old new old stocks. When I ask what materials the new old stocks were made out of he didn't know but he did know his was better...lol. Not only that they are cryo treated, which according to him made them out last any of the long life tubes ever made in the last century. I was laughing very hard at this point, it was upsetting him.

I wished I could remember the company. I did do a bit of looking after the show at their website, the tube prices were $150+ per tube for 12ax/12au variant. But of course they are "cryo treated" 😂🤣 In fact a major tube manufacturing company back in the day experimented with cryotherapy on tubes and determined it was detrimental to the lifespan of the tube itself. So take that for what it is all those old scientists are dead and all that information they did is gone...

VR3 · June 15

If he quantum shocked it he could have charged 600 a tube.

Loser! 😅

pitdogg2 · June 15

VR3 wrote: »

If he quantum shocked it he could have charged 600 a tube.

Loser! 😅

Actually, I wanted to "quantum" shock him, buut turning someone upside down and dropping them on their head is frowned on this day and time. 🤣🤣

mhardy6647 · June 15

pitdogg2 wrote: »

If you take anything away from this article, this is it.

Along the way, manufacturers eventually forgot how to make a tube with a 10,000 hour cathode or a long-life rhenium-tungsten heater. They can’t make a high quality tube now, even if they wanted to—the knowledge and the machines that made those tubes is lost.

The vast sea of technical expertise and superior materials available in the 1960s were light years ahead of anything that exists today. If you could travel back in time and see it with your own eyes, you’d think you were on another planet—

These manufacturers and their scientists are long gone. They threw away all this knowledge because supposedly it was never going to be needed again.

I had a guy at Axpona who "supposedly" made their own tubes, for his own amps and preamps tell me how his tubes were made better with better materials yada, yada, yada.... He went on the state how much better his was than the old new old stocks. When I ask what materials the new old stocks were made out of he didn't know but he did know his was better...lol. Not only that they are cryo treated, which according to him made them out last any of the long life tubes ever made in the last century. I was laughing very hard at this point, it was upsetting him.

I wished I could remember the company. I did do a bit of looking after the show at their website, the tube prices were $150+ per tube for 12ax/12au variant. But of course they are "cryo treated" 😂🤣 In fact a major tube manufacturing company back in the day experimented with cryotherapy on tubes and determined it was detrimental to the lifespan of the tube itself. So take that for what it is all those old scientists are dead and all that information they did is gone...

FWIW, I agree completely. It seems counterintuitive to the young punks

in the "techni-generation(s)"*, but the materials technology of the vacuum tube era is essentially lost to the ages, probably in the form of trade secrets that died with the people who developed the manufacturing processes.
I suspect that the other big problem is that many of the materials (alloys and stuff) actually used and/or (perhaps more likely) the manufacturing processes to make the vacuum tubes' innards are, at this point, way too envirormentally hazardous to be permitted anywhere

in the current era.

source: https://www.worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/Technology/RCA-Books/RCA-Receiving-Tube-Manual-1959-RC-19-OCR.pdf

_______________
* with no apologies to Crack the Sky, one of THE greatest rock bands ever.

https://youtu.be/NOD8ltgv8IA?si=FMZYOc2e8Eg7iKXI

heiney9 · June 15

Very good read, nice overview and not to technical. Really drives home the idea that today's tubes are not even close to those made in the heyday. Makes me want to hoard even more than I already have!

One thing is many of the chemicals and processes used are banned today as extremely hazardous to humans and the environment. So, even if we could "recreate" that golden age with knowledge, craftsmanship and materials, many of the chemicals and many of the processes would be to environmentally banned.

H9

invalid · June 15

I can agree that most current production tube are inferior to nos, but I have over 13,000 hours on a pair of Linlai elite 6sl7 tubes and they sound better than nos tubes I've tried.

bcwsrt · June 15

pitdogg2 wrote: »

…

I wished I could remember the company…

Ivan, was it this company? I remember you and @erniejade getting into an extended convo about tubes with an individual this year and I think it was this vendor.

Of course, maybe your story above is from some other year!?

pitdogg2 · June 15

bcwsrt wrote: »

pitdogg2 wrote: »

…

I wished I could remember the company…

Ivan, was it this company? I remember you and @erniejade getting into an extended convo about tubes with an individual this year and I think it was this vendor.

Of course, maybe your story above is from some other year!?

No Brian, it was two years ago when we went with Jeff and Derek. Small room upstairs.
The CAT guy was legit.

bcwsrt · June 15

Cool. Shoulda known. I didn’t remember you laughing and didn’t figure you’d have stayed engaged as long as you did if he wasn’t legit. 👍

mhardy6647 · June 15

The one odd observation, from my perspective, in the article @clipdat posted is this:

That said, the fact that there are companies making tubes today is nothing short of miraculous. The size of the vacuum tube market today, compared to what was happening in the 1960s, is as a pond to the vast blue sea. It’s only the demand for domestic audio amplifiers that’s kept the tube industry alive...

[emphasis added]
Seems to me that the 'vacuum tube audiophile' community has long claimed that the guitar amp market is what kept modern vacuum tube production alive! Now I am wondering if there is some weird vacuum tube cabal that's behind the continued viability of vacuum tube manufacturing.

The article name checks JJ & ElectroHarmonix -- the former is somewhat associated with hifi, but the latter far less so (with a couple of minor exceptions -- e.g., the ElectroHarmonix 2A3

).

It's also interesting that the article glosses over the nontrivial current crop of Chinese-made vacuum tubes.

pitdogg2 · June 15

Correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't Mullard, Tung-Sol, Gold Lion and ElectroHarmonix all owned by the same Russian company?

invalid · June 15

@mhardy6647 that was what I was getting at, the current crop of Chinese tubes don't only sound great, they seem to last as well.

mhardy6647 · June 16

invalid wrote: »

@mhardy6647 that was what I was getting at, the current crop of Chinese tubes don't only sound great, they seem to last as well.

Sorry, I must've missed your comment!

I am distracted -- working on some home improvement projects between bouts of making the internet safe for people with triple-digit IQs, you know?

mhardy6647 · June 16

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't Mullard, Tung-Sol, Gold Lion and ElectroHarmonix all owned by the same Russian company?

Well, they're all Russian sourced tubes AFAIK. The brand names are all owned by New Sensor Corp, but IIRC (and Wikipedia, interestingly, kinda backs me up on this) it is/they are all owned by Mike Matthews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovtek

GlennDog · June 16

heiney9 wrote: »

Very good read. Makes me want to hoard even more than I already have!

ABSOLUTELY

heiney9 wrote: »

One thing is, many of the chemicals and processes used are banned today as extremely hazardous to humans and the environment. So, even if we could "recreate" that golden age with knowledge, craftsmanship and materials, many of the chemicals and many of the processes would be to environmentally banned.

H9

just like MANY of you ol cranky farts . . . I used to play with Mercury from discarded T-stats

Toolfan66 · June 16

invalid wrote: »

I can agree that most current production tube are inferior to nos, but I have over 13,000 hours on a pair of Linlai elite 6sl7 tubes and they sound better than nos tubes I've tried.

Agreed, Linlai 6SN7’s are the best tube I have had in my system as well.