All Tapped Out???
nooshinjohn
Posts: 25,394
I am sitting here listening to my wonderful L800's, being fed by my tube amps, Arcam AVR20, and Simaudio 680D DAC... it sounds fantastic, but out of curiosity and a desire to get even more out of the Legends, I picked up a Pass Audio XP20 a couple weeks ago. I have been using it for the past week or so and I'll be damned if I can hear any improvement over the Arcam.
They sound virtually identical, and before we assume something must be amiss with the Pass, before I set it up, it went to Pass Labs for refurbishment and was found to be in flawless condition. I let it settle in for 48 hours before doing any serious listening. This leads me to the realization that perhaps the Polk Legends may be performing at the peak of their ability and there is nothing left to squeeze out of them. This thought flies in the face of everything I have come to expect, so I thought I would post this and get some input.
Might it be time to move on from Polk?
They sound virtually identical, and before we assume something must be amiss with the Pass, before I set it up, it went to Pass Labs for refurbishment and was found to be in flawless condition. I let it settle in for 48 hours before doing any serious listening. This leads me to the realization that perhaps the Polk Legends may be performing at the peak of their ability and there is nothing left to squeeze out of them. This thought flies in the face of everything I have come to expect, so I thought I would post this and get some input.
Might it be time to move on from Polk?
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
Comments
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May just be time to move on from pass labs. Don't get to hunt up on brands, I've tried maybe 20 amps on my speakers before landing where I'm at. Constantly making decisions based on brands you've always used may deliver no results- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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You've got a bottleneck/weak link somewhere in your system and it isn't the L800 imo.
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Honestly, that was the first thing that came to mind, Drew. Whether it be a cable or something else holding the system back....
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Could also be the tube amps have a strong enough character of their own to mask major differences in that system the way it is configured now between the very competent Arcam and Pass Labs preamp sections. I wouldn't call that a bottleneck if that is what it is. Could just be that both preamp sections have the same type of synergy as each other in that system. If the Arcam is performing as well as the XP20 that's a very good thing!
I'd try an AVR or cheaper preamp in the system that I knew to sound worse than those two to see how the system sounds with everything else the same. I suspect it'll sound quite a bit worse, tinny, with a crushed soundstage. Then it would just be a case of the Arcam and Pass Labs just being very good and performing similarly in that system. -
I'm sure you have heard of the law of diminishing returns. It has never been more evident than in the audiophile gear world.
For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
In the systems I have L800s in I find them to be the most neutral and open sounding speakers I've had. Not overly revealing bright/detailed sounding and not syrupy warm. The speakers sound as good with a Marantz 8805a AV preamp as they do with a Parasound JC2 preamp. I tried using a JC2 in home theater bypass mode together with the 8805a and didn't hear enough of a difference to keep it in place.
Sources were another story. Considerable audible differences there. -
the source is everything!- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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But.....I would make the friendly argument that everything affects everything. The source is a very important part of the equation but then again? All it takes is the weakest link to restrict the point of diminishing returns.
Lose that weak link and your returns can offer you so much more.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Honestly, that was the first thing that came to mind, Drew. Whether it be a cable or something else holding the system back....
Tom
Cables are all mid-level AQ or better, so I don't think it would be those...The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
In the systems I have L800s in I find them to be the most neutral and open sounding speakers I've had. Not overly revealing bright/detailed sounding and not syrupy warm. The speakers sound as good with a Marantz 8805a AV preamp as they do with a Parasound JC2 preamp. I tried using a JC2 in home theater bypass mode together with the 8805a and didn't hear enough of a difference to keep it in place.
Sources were another story. Considerable audible differences there.
That is interesting… Doug has a similar Marantz, maybe even the same one. He also has a Pass X1. In his system, there was a huge difference in sound, with the Pass Labs sounding better than the Marantz by a considerable margin. I had hopes that my experience would be similar. I think I am going to move on from the XP20 and hold my ground for a while. Moving on from my amps is a non-starter for me and any other move will need a lottery win to accomplish.
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
nooshinjohn wrote: »In the systems I have L800s in I find them to be the most neutral and open sounding speakers I've had. Not overly revealing bright/detailed sounding and not syrupy warm. The speakers sound as good with a Marantz 8805a AV preamp as they do with a Parasound JC2 preamp. I tried using a JC2 in home theater bypass mode together with the 8805a and didn't hear enough of a difference to keep it in place.
Sources were another story. Considerable audible differences there.
That is interesting… Doug has a similar Marantz, maybe even the same one. He also has a Pass X1. In his system, there was a huge difference in sound, with the Pass Labs sounding better than the Marantz by a considerable margin. I had hopes that my experience would be similar. I think I am going to move on from the XP20 and hold my ground for a while. Moving on from my amps is a non-starter for me and any other move will need a lottery win to accomplish.
I think Emlyn has a good idea with swapping out other preamps (regardless of price) with which you are familiar with their sound characteristics, to find out if you can pick up on those differences.
If not, that would beg the question “Why?”. Then go from there.
I speculatively wonder if the mid/tweet configuration of the L800s might cause frequency response cancellations affecting soundstaging/imaging cues, and whether that might somehow render equipment changes less noticeable.
Good luck with your experiments.CD Players: Sony CDP-211; Sony DVP-S9000ES; Sony UDP-X800M2 (x2); Cambridge Audio CXC
DACs: Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III (x2); Denafrips Ares II (x2)
Streamers: ROKU (x3); Bluesound Node 2i and Node N130 w/LHY LPS // Receivers: Yamaha RX-V775BT; Yamaha RX-V777
Preamps: B&K Ref 50; B&K Ref 5 S2; Classe CP-800 MkII; Audio Research SP16L (soon)
Amps: Niles SI-275; B&K ST125.7; B&K ST125.2; Classe CA-2300; Butler Audio TDB-5150
Speakers: Boston Acoustics CR55; Focal Chorus 705v; Wharfedale Diamond 10.2; Monitor Audio Silver-1; Def Tech Mythos One (x4)/Mythos Three Center (x2)/Mythos Two pr.; Martin Logan Electromotion ESL; Legacy Audio Victoria/Silverscreen Center; Gallo Acoustics Reference 3.1; SVS SB-1000 Pro; REL HT-1003; B&W ASW610; HifiMan HE400i
Turntable: Dual 721 Direct-Drive w/Audio Technica AT-VM95e cart
Cables: Tripp-lite 14ga. PCs, Blue Jeans Cable ICs, Philips PXT1000 ICs; Kimber Kable DV30 coaxial ICs; Canare L-4E6S XLR ICs; Kimber Kable 8PR & 8TC speaker cables. -
nooshinjohn wrote: »In the systems I have L800s in I find them to be the most neutral and open sounding speakers I've had. Not overly revealing bright/detailed sounding and not syrupy warm. The speakers sound as good with a Marantz 8805a AV preamp as they do with a Parasound JC2 preamp. I tried using a JC2 in home theater bypass mode together with the 8805a and didn't hear enough of a difference to keep it in place.
Sources were another story. Considerable audible differences there.
That is interesting… Doug has a similar Marantz, maybe even the same one. He also has a Pass X1. In his system, there was a huge difference in sound, with the Pass Labs sounding better than the Marantz by a considerable margin. I had hopes that my experience would be similar. I think I am going to move on from the XP20 and hold my ground for a while. Moving on from my amps is a non-starter for me and any other move will need a lottery win to accomplish.
In my system the Marantz 7704 does not come anywhere close to the Pass Labs as a 2 channel pre. When John brought down the Moon 380D a few weeks back, it only took listening to 1 song on the Marantz to tell me that either the DAC wasnt the right fit or the Marantz was completely lacking as a pre. Putting the Pass X1 back in the mix was night and day difference. ICs used are WireWorld silver eclipse. Never heard the 1.2TLs sound this good! I may be in the same place as John now; a place where i can be satisfied for years to come.....as long as John doesnt make me listen to another new piece of gear.🤣____________________________________________________________
polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS, SVS PB13 Ultra X 2, Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Bob Carver Crimson Beauty 350 Tube Mono Blocks, Carver Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400x5, ADCOM GFA 7807, Panasonic UB420, Moon 380D DAC, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050 -
Found the following quote from an Audioholics review:
“SDA is a kind of analog acoustic crosstalk cancellation. It uses speaker drivers placed precisely the distance between the average human ears on each cabinet to achieve crosstalk cancellation. The outer midrange driver and tweeter of each L800 speaker produces an inverted signal of the opposite speaker. This is an attempt to cancel out the sound of one of the speakers from reaching the opposite side ear. The cancellation method is similar to how active noise cancelling headphones work; generating a sound of the same amplitude but opposite phase negates the original sound. Polk’s new “Pro SDA” updates the original SDA by incorporating improvements including headshadow response, which allows the SDA cross-talk cancellation to be expanded into the treble region without serious interference problems. The Pro improvement adds a 15-degree baffle angle which helps narrow the speaker overall while also building in the toe angle needed for best sound. The new technology does a better job matching the true interaural crosstalk distortion created with most speakers and thus more completely cancels it.”
He spent a lot more words describing the technology and design goals Polk Audio had on the L800s. Maybe that could give further insight as you experiment. Full review in below link:
https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/polk-legend-l800
CD Players: Sony CDP-211; Sony DVP-S9000ES; Sony UDP-X800M2 (x2); Cambridge Audio CXC
DACs: Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III (x2); Denafrips Ares II (x2)
Streamers: ROKU (x3); Bluesound Node 2i and Node N130 w/LHY LPS // Receivers: Yamaha RX-V775BT; Yamaha RX-V777
Preamps: B&K Ref 50; B&K Ref 5 S2; Classe CP-800 MkII; Audio Research SP16L (soon)
Amps: Niles SI-275; B&K ST125.7; B&K ST125.2; Classe CA-2300; Butler Audio TDB-5150
Speakers: Boston Acoustics CR55; Focal Chorus 705v; Wharfedale Diamond 10.2; Monitor Audio Silver-1; Def Tech Mythos One (x4)/Mythos Three Center (x2)/Mythos Two pr.; Martin Logan Electromotion ESL; Legacy Audio Victoria/Silverscreen Center; Gallo Acoustics Reference 3.1; SVS SB-1000 Pro; REL HT-1003; B&W ASW610; HifiMan HE400i
Turntable: Dual 721 Direct-Drive w/Audio Technica AT-VM95e cart
Cables: Tripp-lite 14ga. PCs, Blue Jeans Cable ICs, Philips PXT1000 ICs; Kimber Kable DV30 coaxial ICs; Canare L-4E6S XLR ICs; Kimber Kable 8PR & 8TC speaker cables.
