Best Polk bi-amp bookshelf speakers?

DozerCSX

Greetings! I had a terrific Polk bi-amp setup, using rt800i floorstanders and the stunning Panasonic SA-XR57 full digital bi-amp receiver. With my cs400i center channel, I had both bi-amp and bi-wire in my setup, one of the friendliest and most noticeable such setups in existence.

Alas, my wife decided that floorstanders were no longer welcome in our household, so I retired and sold the rt800i's to a lucky chap. I have since been on the lookout for a smaller, bookshelf stereo bi-amp pair to continue with. However, no such luck...

I have looked at the following:
1. Rt55i's were my initial replacement weapons of choice, but they are much overpriced for the conditions I have been seeing on eBay and Craig's List.
2. I considered a pair of cs400i centers as LRs but would like feedback before such a Frankenstein investment.
3. Oh and my current "wife-approved" system is exceptional Polk Monitor 7C LR and my CS400i center to a Denon HD-750h receiver - nice, but non bi-amp configuration. Very good, but not to the level of my bi-amped setup. (I continue to run the center in bi-wire configuration)

Any thoughts or recommendations would be much appreciated...

F1nut

Look up what real bi-amping is because you can't do it with an AVR and passive crossovers.

DozerCSX

Look up the SA-XR57, then come back.

F1nut

Allow me to school you.

To bi-amp requires 2 separate amplifiers, each with its own power supply. Your AVR does not have that.

In addition, to bi-amp requires the use of active crossovers not the passive crossovers you are using.

Saw this about your AVR.

Conclusions
Panasonic has certainly achieved the efficiency goal in designing this receiver. Alas, it has rather strange response which I think is indicative of less than perfectly engineered amplifier. I suspect you can pick these up for a song so in that regard, it may not be a bad purchase if you want a cool and light amplifier. Otherwise, I can't recommend it.

F1nut

Here's a bit more about your AVR. It appears to be rated at 100wpc @ 6 ohms @ 1kHz. However, when using 4 channels the wpc drops to about 75wpc @ 6 ohms. Considering your speakers are 8 ohm nominal and play a lot more frequencies than just at 1kHz the actual wpc would be much less than the rated specs.

The reason for the drop is that all those channels are sharing the same power
supply. You cannot rob Peter to pay Paul.

treitz3

F1nut wrote: »

In addition, to bi-amp requires the use of active crossovers not the passive crossovers you are using.

To actively bi-amp, yes. One can always passively bi-amp as well. They just won't be changing the signal.

Tom

rooftop59

DozerCSX wrote: »

Greetings! I had a terrific Polk bi-amp setup, using rt800i floorstanders and the stunning Panasonic SA-XR57 full digital bi-amp receiver. With my cs400i center channel, I had both bi-amp and bi-wire in my setup, one of the friendliest and most noticeable such setups in existence.

Alas, my wife decided that floorstanders were no longer welcome in our household, so I retired and sold the rt800i's to a lucky chap. I have since been on the lookout for a smaller, bookshelf stereo bi-amp pair to continue with. However, no such luck...

I have looked at the following:
1. Rt55i's were my initial replacement weapons of choice, but they are much overpriced for the conditions I have been seeing on eBay and Craig's List.
2. I considered a pair of cs400i centers as LRs but would like feedback before such a Frankenstein investment.
3. Oh and my current "wife-approved" system is exceptional Polk Monitor 7C LR and my CS400i center to a Denon HD-750h receiver - nice, but non bi-amp configuration. Very good, but not to the level of my bi-amped setup. (I continue to run the center in bi-wire configuration)

Any thoughts or recommendations would be much appreciated...

I would just keep looking for a nice pair of rt55is. Or, if budget permits, the newer R200s or R200 AEs?

No on number 2. I tried that once many moons ago for shites and giggles, and it sounded terrible. They are meant to be placed horizontally only, and the crossover makes it so that is the only option.

As already noted, AVRs have tiny power supplies, and only one. The more channels driven, far less WPC. You are just - as Jesse likes to say - robbing Peter to pay Paul. If you want MUCH better sound, get a good used two channel amp like a parasound HCA-1000A. You will then understand the market bullcrap of bi-amping with an AVR...

rooftop59

oh but if you like your 7Cs, why not just update the crossovers? And what tweeters are you rocking? That with a better amp and I think you will be VERY surprised...but you will have to get an AVR with preouts.

Clipdat

"Panasonic" isn't a name that comes to mind when I think about high quality sound reproduction and amplification.

VR3

Tweeters require so little power, there's just nothing really to be gained powering a 2 way speaker with multiple amps if your main amp is high current and can double wattage as the impedence drops 8/4/2

VR3

Biwiring is pure marketing, it is no different then a double run of speaker wire, just a super long set of jumpers

invalid

treitz3 wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

In addition, to bi-amp requires the use of active crossovers not the passive crossovers you are using.

To actively bi-amp, yes. One can always passively bi-amp as well. They just won't be changing the signal.

Tom

You can change the signal if you use a passive line level crossover.

invalid

VR3 wrote: »

Biwiring is pure marketing, it is no different then a double run of speaker wire, just a super long set of jumpers

I would have agreed with you on this before I bought my apogee duetta 2 speakers, bi- wiring does make quite a different with the apogees, even when using inexpensive wire. The midrange/tweeter works best with course wire and the bass panel works best with fine wire.

VR3

The question would be simply this, if you were to install jumpers between your top and bottom binding post, would you actually hear a difference?

The answer, in my experience is no. If you used your exact same configuration but simply installed jumpers on the speaker end there would be no difference to detect, you simply have joined the wire at both ends.

Different types of wires make a difference but the question of biwiring making a difference to me is definitely a no

pitdogg2

Different types of wires make a difference but the question of biwiring making a difference to me is definitely a no

Agree!

mhardy6647

Clipdat wrote: »

"Panasonic" isn't a name that comes to mind when I think about high quality sound reproduction and amplification.

I mean, well... sometimes...






but, yeah... point taken.

Clipdat

So much pent up sexual energy in that advertisement, lol.

mhardy6647

Clipdat wrote: »

So much pent up sexual energy in that advertisement, lol.

It was the seventies... that was pretty much everybody's baseline in those days.

PG version:


R version

source: https://www.psaudio.com/blogs/copper/empire-part-3 (including some commentary on these two Empire Grenadier ads)

PS they're pretty awful loudspeakers.

audioluvr

Why in the hell would anyone want to bi-amp bookshelf speakers???!!!

skrol

The one benefit that I can see to bi-amping from a receiver or single amp is the doubling of speaker wire (conductor) from the speaker output to the speakers. This is especially true if using a long run of thin gage wire.

rooftop59

love it when someone asks a question, you take time to answer, and then they disappear...

VR3

skrol wrote: »

The one benefit that I can see to bi-amping from a receiver or single amp is the doubling of speaker wire (conductor) from the speaker output to the speakers. This is especially true if using a long run of thin gage wire.

Most mass produced loudspeakers have over a hundred feet of 22 awg (or thinner!) copper wire wrapped around an iron core between the positive binding post and the midrange driver.

Alot of things we perceive as improvements definitely has a visual bias associated with it.

Geoff4rfc

This whole thing could have been avoided when the wife said, "floor standers are no longer welcome in our household" by replying with, "then neither are you!!"

F1nut

rooftop59 wrote: »

love it when someone asks a question, you take time to answer, and then they disappear...

In this case I believe it's due to embarrassment after realizing how wrong he was.

VR3

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

This whole thing could have been avoided when the wife said, "floor standers are no longer welcome in our household" by replying with, "then neither are you!!"

For sure man... My wife was ok with my speakers but honestly having 6 ft 400 pound speakers has been awesome. It is literally impossible for my daughter or my wife to knock them over and my wife can't reach the top

treitz3

The next time I am over and see your other half? I am SO gonna explain to her that your hiding spot is on top of your speakers....that there is a secret hidden door to release her next purse.

At that point? I'll grab my popcorn and watch as you try to maintain damage control.

The only way to avoid this is to send me a package from Ed McMan stating that I am a winner of a lottery I don't even play.

But that's your problem to solve. It is what it is. Oh, BTW? I loves ya' bro'! Good luck!

Tom

DozerCSX

Gosh! Ya leave a thread for a couple years and everyone loses their kittens!
Here's my most recent writeup on the Panasonic SA-XR57, on another technical thread. The engineer did a full test of the receiver, but did not test (because he did not know about) the SA-XR57's bi-amp capabilities (NOT bi-wire).
Read 'em and weep, boys... (and girls!)
***************************************
from https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/panasonic-sa-xr57-multi-channel-receiver-review.10480/page-4
***************************************
"Greetings! Thanks for reviewing this quirky, wonderful SA-XR57 receiver! You clearly spent a lot of effort and saw some of the lovely weirdness built in... I've had the silver SA-XR57 for 15 years, and it's the Darling of my Demo parties when you understand what it can do.
I respectfully offer that you are missing the point on this beast; It has a very clear set of unusual requirements:

(1) This thing SUCKS at analog inputs. It has them, but they suck. Your numbers clearly show this. This also means you should not make assumptions about the digital path from what you measure from the analog path on this guy.
(2) This thing SUCKS at headphone out! Not meant for headphones, not good driving them.

Here's what it's made for:
- it is, I think, the ONLY receiver I know of that can give a complete digital path - from a digital in, all the way through, to the amplified speaker out. No D/A conversions on the path, until the final amp output to the speakers. None. Ex. Take a CD input, connect it over a digital path (say Toslink) to the SA-XR57. Famously no noise in an all digital path. If you introduce a D/A into the equation, it "loses the Magic".
- the advantage of a receiver with all digital, discrete amplification is that, if the maker desires (and Panasonic did here) digital amps can be auto-reassigned on different paths (which is what you do by hand on high end amplifiers to achieve this capability).
- this receiver provides an unusual, killer feature which you did not test: active Bi-amp capability! It requires some hands on configuration, but it will drive Bi-amp speakers in both stereo and 5.1 configurations. I know of no other receiver that can do this. My L/R mains have been the Polk RT800i towers, with Bi-Amp connections. I have used other Bi-Amp speakers with similar success.

- *Amazing*: This receiver has SEVEN discrete, configurable/ assignable digital amps, 100 Watts each, which will auto reconfigure in a way that no other receiver I have ever seen can do. It will drive 7.1 (seven speakers, one subwoofer) in it's base configuration; HOWEVER you can set it up to drive a 5.1 configuration with the L/R Bi-Amp speakers "stealing" the rear surround amps to provide TWO of the digital amps to drive the separate low and high path for the Bi-amp LR main speakers! This provides 200 watts (100w to the high path and 100w on the low path) to the Bi-Amp main speakers, and 100 watts each to the remaining three speakers. So you get 5.1 plus true Bi-Amp mains! Amazing! Check it out, and contact me for any configuration questions ( I've memorized and reengineered the crappy documentation which describes this) it even has Bi-Amp setup controls hidden in the menu stack which allow you to gain each individual Bi-Amp signal path to your liking. Super cool.

- ** Even more amazing**: Using Bi-Amp L/R mains, if the SA-XR57 senses a STEREO ONLY configuration, it will steal SIX of the digital amps (!) and reallocate them to provide THREE discrete digital amps per Bi-Amp speaker! It applies ONE digital amp (100 Watts) to the high signal path and TWO digital amps (200 watts!) to the low signal path - that's 300 digital watts per Bi-Amp speaker! This is what the documentation calls "Tri Amp" configuration, but you can only get there in a stereo configuration with Bi-Amp LR mains. BONUS: you can even tell it to add the subwoofer out path to this, so you can achieve the "near Holy Grail" configuration of a 2.1 Bi-Amp configuration, using SIX HUNDRED DISCRETE DIGITAL AMPS plus whatever you are getting out of your subwoofer!!!
************************************

p.s. I did find a pair of (non-Polk) bookshelf speakers with bi-amp capability: the Panasonic SB-PS27s.
p.p.s. I no longer use my SA-XR57 as as my HT1 system (it only has one HDMI!) It's now in my office with the SB-PS27s in bi-amp mode!
p.p.p.s. Bi-amp bookcase speakers simply sound better than non-bi-amp, as they bypass the crossovers.


I believe there is not another receiver out there, anywhere, that can provide these unique audio configurations. It's purely a function of having SEVEN DISCRETE CONFIGURABLE DIGITAL AMPS, plus an adventurous, quirky company willing to offer this crazy set of features. And you can easily A/B demo these using the remote and a couple of front clicks on the device (it's smart). I've dazzled my friends for years with this audio wizardry, and I recommend you rerun some of your tests using these unique configurations, and tell me you don't think it's an amazing feature set.

F1nut

Oy vey...LOL

F1nut

Bi-amp bookcase speakers simply sound better than non-bi-amp, as they bypass the crossovers.

So, I'll presume you have your AVR, via speaker cable, connected to the speakers binding posts. Please explain how you believe the crossovers are bypassed?

Hermitism

msg

My question is how are bookshelf speakers, presumably on stands, any more acceptable than RT800i? Isn't the footprint similar? It's not as though the RT800i are a huge speaker.

40H x 8W x 10.5D