new cd player?

Oldwriter

Gone? As I understand from several sources, the great 963 will soon be replaced by - - - what? their newest model! Should be interesting to see what "new and improved" stuff they have in store for us. I'd buy from OneCall - indeed, that's where I just got my great Onkyo 701 - but I'd rather wait for the next model of SACD player. Who knows - they may have found a way to connect it to my digital coax input - without having to string all those analog cables around my cabinet! Larry R.

SniperREX

I received my 963 two days ago. I've been too busy to post .

I hooked it using a Monster RCA cable from the multichannel analog audio output to the FR/FL of the 8ch analog input of my H-K AVR-7200. I selected 8ch DVD-Audio, because in 8ch Direct mode my sub is mute. I wonder why .

I'm very impressed so far. Now I got a wider soundstage and a smoother sound than before with my old Sony DVD player.

PQ is quite better too.

In up-sampling mode I hear a slight improvement. Disabling the video-circuit give me almost no improvement.

I have to buy a SACD and some nice RCA cable for the multichannel sound asap .

My only complains, no HDCD (but I guess the upsampling and the SACD playback are sweeter and more common ), no DVI and no upsampling to 720p/1080i. Anyway I wonder if the video upsampling feature is actually just BS .

Oldwriter

Well, it looks as though you're off to a good start - too bad you don't have SACDs to properly test out the unit. As to the up-sampling - I'm still trying to figure out just what that is.
Sorry - no input from me on video up-sampling - I'm still in the good old "plain-Jane" TV situation, and will be for awhile.
If you want excellent, cheap, cables, try accessing the Blue Jeans Cable web site. I've got their cables, and they are super-well made - and sound great! You won't go wrong with them.
Again - good luck! Larry R.

SniperREX

Thx for the advice .

I forgot to write what CDs I've used so far.

Norah Jones - Come Away with me
Mark Knopfler (HDCD ) - Sailing to Philadelphia
George Michael - Patience
Dido - Life for Rent

I was very impressed by the Mark Knopfler CD. It sounds better with the 963SA than with the old Sony with HDCD ! Very smooth sound.

Oldwriter

. . . John K. to come on the open forum and explain in relatively simple terms just how up-sampling works! With the 963, you have a choice of up-sample rates. Strange, because I recall that most CD players now have 8x up-sampling built in - so why in the world would you want switchable up-sampling at a lower rate? Also - does this up-sampling take place before the DAC - or as a part of it.
I still want a system where I just have a remote with a big, red button - when I press it, the music starts, when I press it again, the music stops! G R I N How 'bout that for utter simplicity? Oh, I know - I'd get very tired listening to just that one tune!
OK, John K. - take it away! Larry R.

F1nut

Larry,

Read this a few times, it'll sink in eventually.

http://www.mlssa.com/pdf/Upsampling-theory-rev-2.pdf

Oldwriter

. . .although I have a much better grasp of upsampling, the article leaves me with several questions.
Does the Upsampling DAC upsample the digital stream AFTER its initial 8x oversampling? Or does it replace the 8x filter?
Does all this upsampling affect only the analog output of my CD player - assuming that there's no on-board DAC for digital output?
Finally - given a 192/24bit DAC, doesn't this final value "crunch" all of the over and upsampling done to the original stream?
Seems to me that the manufacturers and magazine writers desperately need to present some "layman's terms" reports that succinctly outline the oversampling/upsampling processes, and how they impact Joe Smith's listening.
By now, I'm sure all of you are really sick and tired of my postings regarding my ignorance of things digitally processed. I promise - no more!!
Yes, F1nut, you are correct - I do need to read your kindly-supplied article several times - then even I MIGHT find that it does "sink in." GRIN Thanks - Larry R.

John K.

Larry, checked in a while ago and saw from your last post that the mystery of the wonders(not) of "upsampling" remains unsolved, so let's try a bit more. The answer to your first question is neither. The upsampler(which isn't a DAC, but a separate filter before the DAC)does its thing before the oversampling in the DAC, but doesn't totally replace the 8X oversampling filter; instead they "share" the oversampling duties. For example, the Philips 963 can supply 96KHz or 192 KHz upsampling to the AD1955 DAC it uses. As shown in the AD1955 data sheet I linked in the reply to Rex, when it gets 96KHz(rather than 44.1KHz)input it does 4X(rather than 8X)oversampling, and when it gets 192KHz it does 2X. The net result of this "sharing" of duties is essentially the same as what the oversampling DAC does alone. To give you a little more reading, here's Theta's view(with some added puffery for their own product, of course).

On your second question, the upsampling/oversampling in the player affects only the analog output(the on-board DAC which all players have is of course for analog, not digital, output); the digital output is processed by the DAC in the receiver.

Don't follow your "crunch" question, but let me give you still more reading to do in this study of, as the author points out, 8X oversampling without upsampling. The bottom line is that "upsampling" appears to be a solution in search of a problem. Although casual listening reports have varied between huge, slight and no difference(as in many audio products where no audible differences in fact exist), no controlled study under double-blind conditions is available to indicate that the process has audible benefits. Slight differences in some other factor, most often volume level, mislead us into perceiving quality differences.

Oldwriter

. . .after all of the help and links you all have given me, I think I'll just try to absorb it all - and plan my next CD player purchase based on my best "take" on its specifications.
I know I want SACD - and I know that my next player will likely be my "last one" for a very long time.
That said, I'm willing to part with several hundred dollars - but not thousands - to achieve a level of sound that is the best I can afford for my budget.
The Onkyo seems fine, at least for now. But the Polk RTi6 speakers may not last. They tend to "overload" with high levels of orchestral or opera music - creating a distorted top end that I can't seem to resolve. Perhaps I'm just asking too much of them. And no, I don't play at very high volume.
Thanks to John K. and all of you for your patience and help. Sorry if I've clogged with forum(s) with my stubborn questions.
Sincerely - Larry R.

F1nut

I'll ask this question again John, since you never answered it the first time. I'm curious, what gear have you actually had experience with and what gear do you own?

F1nut

Larry, more reading for you.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0104/tjoeb.htm

Oldwriter

Well, I'm still drying my eyes after reading this - laughing too hard - and F1nut, I've gotta hand it to you - you've FINALLY given me answers to ALL of my CD-problem questions! Trouble was, I couldn't decide where truth gave way to fantasy - but heck, WHAT A RIDE!
I wonder how many people actually tried to buy the "Ah!" for their own use!
I've bookmarked the article - for late-night reading when I'm tired of a mountain of audiophile-babble articles praising this or that "tweak." Thanks again! Larry R.

F1nut

They are selling like hotcakes with very, very few to be found in the used market, that should tell you something, eh?

Edit: Here's some reviews for your late night reading.

www.audioreview.com

Type in Ah Njoe Tjoeb, hit search.

Oldwriter

. . . did (hahahahaha) this all get started, F1nut? I'm absolutely flummoxed - and I thought I'd done my fair share of word-warping as a perfeshunal jurnilyst - HA! I couldn't hold a candle to all these product descriptions - and the reviews! Well, my wife came in to see what all the ruckus (laughter) was about, and when she started reading the reviews - well, she said that after years of reading my BS, I'd finally been topped!
Please - PLEASE - tell me how this whole thing started - if, in fact, you know! (going to find some Kleenex) Larry R.

F1nut

Larry, it started with your quest for a better cd player.....remember???

As for all those reviews being BS, maybe you should try one first before passing judgement.

I'll leave you to your quest with this little thought. Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know.

Oldwriter

. . .how does one try what doesn't exist? Heh? LR
(ouch - putting tongue in cheek hurts!)

shack

Larry...dry your eyes and read....IT EXISTS....

Jesse is not pulling your leg here...It is a very fine CDP.

AH! Njoe Tjoeb 4000

Oldwriter

. . .based on what I read - well, I can't buy it. There must be a grand conspiracy here. Ain' no sech animal! Period. LR

Oldwriter

. . . that these CD players actually exist? And that all these, uh, "modifications" are in real-life - not fantasy? Huh? I'm an unfortunate electronics beginner - so all these phrases you toss around so casually - well, I never know whether they're real or fantasy.
Bottom line, guyz: if - IF - all this is real - then the heck with it, y'all are too crazy for me! I'm outta here! Fer shore! Larry R.

F1nut

Larry,

I'm not really sure what you find so funny about the information that has been provided to you. You asked for help understanding upsampling/oversampling and help finding a better CD or SACD/CD player. I have tried to assist you with your quest, but you seem to think it's some sort of joke. Maybe you feel John K.'s advice is better or at least fits better with your way of thinking. That's fine, believe what you will, but unless you have actually listened to a piece of gear you just don't know for sure, do you??? All the info he has posted he found by searching for it on Goggle. I can do it, you can do it and anybody that wants to can do it too. What the difference is between you, him and myself is that I have experienced many types of CD and SACD/CD players with and without upsampling. As I stated early on, I don't know how upsampling actually works and I don't really care. All I need to know is that it does work because I can hear the difference and I'm not alone. I own one of the best SACD/upsampling CD players on the market, but if you don't want to believe the things I have to say, that's your problem. This is a basic truth in audio, garbage in, garbage out. Personally, I don't like garbage.

I know there are hi-fi shops in and around Naples, so I'd suggest you get out there and hear the differences for yourself instead of trying to understand them from reading.

BTW, since you don't think the AH! Njoe Tjoeb exists then why not contact Kevin Deal at www.upscaleaudio.com. He'll be glad to assist you.

Good luck with your quest, I'm done here!

F1

Oldwriter

Well, I seem to have stepped on some sensitive egos here - and for that, I'm sorry. I'd just never read such gobbledegook in my life as I had about those Dutch "New Tube" CD players - WHICH I THOUGHT WERE A HOAX!
I've e-mailed the upscale audio guru, asking about the "Ah!" products - but I still harbor a feeling that it's a very clever hoax, that such a player is a figment of imagination.
Anyway - IF such exists, I hereby apologize for my obviously rude and desparaging remarks - I really, really thought I was being put on, big time!
Shows that the adage: "a little knowledge is dangerous" holds true to this day.
So much for Sunday. . . Larry R.

shack

but I still harbor a feeling that it's a very clever hoax, that such a player is a figment of imagination.

Anyway - IF such exists,

Larry, Larry, Larry....Quit being such a skeptic!

Stereophile

AudioEnz

TNT Audio

Trust us....It really does exist!

dorokusai

Yea whatever, buy what you want, who really cares. It's your decision.

saucyknave

I for one am grateful to Oldwriter as he has tweaked you into this extended discussion. As I'm in the market for a new system I've found this thread very interesting, despite my techno-innocence. I assure you if I had the bucks for an AH, I'd certainly check it out, but with an entire new system to buy this would be an extravagance for me.

I'm just beginning to research how to assemble a system and hardly even know the questions to ask to get one that will give me good sound for mostly jazz and classical music where one wants to hear the individual "voices."

Am I right in assuming given the locale of this forum that most of you use Polk speakers? My last ones were Polk and I was pleased with those and begin to reget I abandoned them when I moved, even though they were 20 years old. (Sticker shock).

saucyknave

Thanks ATC. I noticed the favorable mention of the Toshiba above. As I foolishly abandoned all my old sound pieces recently finding a bargain player is welcome antidote to the sticker shock I'm experiencing.

I have questions about other stero bits posted at:

http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20412

Oldwriter

OK - may I apologize for some of the not-quite-thought-out remarks earlier on this thread. I honestly thought the whole Ah! thing was a giant put-on - even after I read the Stereophile article, et al. I have great respect for the research and testing done for Stereophile, but have always thought them "over the top" in their conclusions. Anyway. . .
Last night I called/e-mailed my audio engineer-friend in LA - who read all of the links, then called me back - laughing loudly. He, too, thought it was a hoax - at least at first. At 4 a.m. he called back (he really is crazy) to say that maybe I was too hasty, that such a product exists - but that he thinks the whole thing is "the Emperor's New Clothes." Hmmm. . . But he said to apologize and get on - so I am. LR

Oldwriter

As I was saying (posting limits) I completely re-read ALL of the links - and then e-mailed the California distributor, and await his reply, if any.
If you all step back from your firm beliefs about 6 feet and read the reviews and other links - perhaps you will read, on the face of it, quite incredible claims and results. It takes me back to 1990, when I did a piece for CNN on the "CD Stoplight" green pen - referred to in the Stereophile article. Did scientific A-B comparisons, and still have three of the six pairs of CDs used - one green-lined, the other plain. The testing included interviews with the company president, my recording engineer-friend, and with 24 people who sat in an FM station studio to listen. BTW, three out of four of them DID hear differences. Does it work? Hey-who knows? Does the "New Tube" CD player really break the sonic barriers? You guys obviously think so - so I hereby apologize for any and all disparaging remarks. LR

Oldwriter

As an aside - how seriously can I take a challenge thrown out by a man who posts his occupation as "masterbating?" Hm? LR