Clarity capacitor

musicmorsels

Thoughts on Clarity Cap PUR, CMR, & CSA lines. Is it worth going with their top line or would it be better to go with the CMR or CSA line? I am working with a pair of RTi8s.

VR3

Cmr is some of the best available

VR3

Csa is great to buy the cmr is much better but also much more expensive

musicmorsels

Alright. So pretty much the higher you go, the better the quality. Do you think it is worth trying the PUR line with RTI8's? I know it is not a top of the line speaker.

Gardenstater

Audience Auricap XO would be a good one to try, and they come in 200V size so not so ridiculously large.

VR3

Imo, if I were looking to do the rti8 I would stick with the csa, imo

zvucnik

There got to be a point of diminishing returns with updating speaker crossover and how much more you get out of the fancy caps for the price premium they command. Especially when we are not talking high end speakers.

Going from electrolytic to film (clarity PX) got to be best sound improvement for the buck, alternatively going with Clarity CSA or CMR costs 2-5 times more than PX.

Do they sound 2-5 times better?

I recently got set of RTi A7 and matching CSi-A6 for $300 and started looking into replacing the caps/resistors to tame some of the their top end brightness/improve sound. To recap with CSAs it comes out to ~$350 vs $170 using their PX line or Jantzen Standard-Z. Audyn Q4 is even cheaper.

@VR3 would it be a drastic difference in sound quality improvement if I went with CSA vs Jantzen Standard-Z?

Another possibility could be to use by-pass Cornell Dubilier 940C or Vishay on PX or Standard-Z in direct path?

These speakers have 0.47uF mylar bypass in the original crossover and polk RTi A series brochure states: "Mylar bypass capacitors in the crossovers extend high frequency response and improve detail and transparency."

Cornell Dubilier 940C / 0,01uF / 3000VDC bypass - 10% tolerance

Sound: Using the 3000VDC Cornell Dubilier 940C as a bypass capacitor in the value 0,01uF really is the "icing on the cake" when you are looking for a low cost bypass capacitor that gell's everything into one coherent sound. Best bang for the buck! Over the years I have used these in many different combinations and everytime they just added more to the overall sound. More coherency and more ease. Especially when you have been "cooking" to find your favourite mix of capacitors and only need to cement the different characters together. Adding the 940C creates an overall more mature sounding speaker. And no, they are not better than the Duelund or VCap bypass capacitors that excel's in naturalness and richness of tone and in transparancy and air. The Duelund and VCap are in another league, not only in sound quality but also in price ;-) Compared to the Jupiter Copper Foil Paper & Wax used as a bypass, the Jupitor is has richer overtones and has a tonally slightly warmer balance. The Vishay MKP1837 used to be my favourite low cost bypass capacitor but now it is the Cornell Dubilier 940C / 0,01uF / 3000VDC. It surpasses the Vishay with quite some margin :-)

Verdict: use them everywhere possible!

Clarity Cap PX MKP 250VDC - 5% tolerance - Verdict: 7,5

Sound: The Clarity Cap range has an overall similarity in tonal balance, going up the range you gain clarity and spatiality. I found the PX to be neutral with a slightly warmish presentation. Compared to a standard Mundorf M-Cap the stereo-image is a larger but less spacious than a Mundorf Supreme or Audyn Cap Plus. Clarity is a good step up from the PW and also the M-Cap. The price/quality ratio is very good. I can highly recommend this capacitor if you are looking for a nice, but not too expensive MKP.

Jantzen Audio Standard Z-Cap 400VDC - 5% tolerance - Verdict: 8-

Sound: A step up in clarity from the Jantzen Audio Cross Cap but they lack the sophistication of the Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Cap. After extensive burn-in they smooth out nicely. In a direct A-B comparison they make the Cross Cap sound a little midrange forward. The Superior Z-Cap paints a bigger and quieter image. The Standard Z-Cap is good if you are looking for a capacitor that renders well without getting too bright. Compared to the Mundorf EVO I would say the Standard Z-Cap is a fraction more neutral but the difference is small. The Standard Z-Cap doesn't have that "mushy" sound the Audyn Cap QS has and their tonal balance is quite neutral. They do emphasise "S" and "T" sounds a little, but that is quite normal for all low-cost capacitors. Due to their low cost they are ideal for budget sensitive systems in the series signal path or for higher grade parallel capacitors in the low-pass of a woofer for example where in low budget systems electrolytics are often found. They are compact in size, so they can turn out handy when space is critical.


Clarity Cap CSA MKP 250VDC and 630VDC - 5% tolerance Verdict: 9

Sound: The tonal character of the Clarity Cap CSA has in common with all Clarity Cap capacitors that is well balanced and never fatiguing. The CSA shows a pleasent intimacy combining the clarity (pun intended) of the ESA with the smoothness of the larger MR. Relatively speaking, I actually found the step up in sound quality from the ESA to the CSA to be greater than from an MR to a CMR. Both the CSA and CMR use Clarity Cap's Copper Connect Technology but it seems to have a greater effect on the SA range than of the MR range. Maybe it's easier to improve lower down the scale than further up it, I don't know, but that is how it cames across to me. Anyway, in direct comparison to the CSA the ESA sounds a little rougher, the CSA seems to produce a more civilized image that is at the same time more neutral. "S" and "T" sounds that were first maybe a little bit rough around the edges with the ESA (I am being very nit-picky here) become free from grain with the CSA. I also found the CSA to mix extremely well with the Jantzen Audio Alumen Z-Cap. A mix of a minimum of 20% Alumen Z-Cap with the rest Clarity Cap CSA enhanced realism of space and lushness of tone. They blend together seamlessly. All in all the Clarity Cap CSA is a well balanced, neutral capacitor that is a welcome addition to capacitors in the lower price range.

VR3

Clarity cap cmr, duelund etc sound night and day better then a standard film capacitor.

xschop

"There got to be a point of diminishing returns with updating speaker crossover and how much more you get out of the fancy caps for the price premium they command. Especially when we are not talking high end speakers.

Going from electrolytic to film (clarity PX) got to be best sound improvement for the buck, alternatively going with Clarity CSA or CMR costs 2-5 times more than PX.

Do they sound 2-5 times better?"

As with many things, only your pocket book can help answer this question.

pitdogg2

I like how @zvucnik copy and pasted from the humble hifi page, the responsible thing to do would be to at least make the acknowledgement to fact that is where it's from.
Instead you make it seem these are "your" observations.

F1nut

I pretty much agree with the observations of Tony Gee at Humble Homemade HiFi on the sound characteristics of caps, but I completely disagree with him about bypass caps.

I completely agree with the following statement about bypass caps as it is exactly what I experienced.

So why use a bypass at all? There are actually components of very high frequencies in some audio waveforms. Some are high order harmonics. If you think of a square wave, the right angles at the top of the wave are extremely high in frequency. Sometimes there are high frequency components in very fast audio sounds, for example, the instantaneous tap of a drum stick on a cymbal. These are the sounds that should be "helped" by including a small-value bypass capacitor in a high pass crossover.

Well, I don't think so. If the 8 µF capacitor blocks frequencies below 5000 Hz and passes frequencies above 5000 Hz, why do we need what is actually another crossover for the same tweeter, but operating at frequencies already passed by the big cap? I am sure engineers have a very good reason, and a couple of them have tried to educate me on this subject. I respect the science and electrical theory on this subject, and my technical background helps me to understand it fairly well. But there is one small problem: the bypasses all sound bad! They add a quality that at first sounds like an increase in air and detail, but after a couple of hours becomes an intrusive harshness and discontinuity in the upper treble. Remove the bypass: all of the detail is present but without that grating and annoying sound. The high frequencies are cleaner, smoother, and much more enjoyable. It doesn't matter if the bypass cap is Teflon®, polystyrene, or common polypropylene, the results are very similar. And to be avoided.

VR3

I hated bypass caps until I tried duelund in that position. Incredible improvement.

Also, all top end duelund caps have a built in bypass cap, usually their silver or gold variety.

Duelund bypass caps are amazing and worth the money

zvucnik

VR3 wrote: »

I hated bypass caps until I tried duelund in that position. Incredible improvement.

Also, all top end duelund caps have a built in bypass cap, usually their silver or gold variety.

Duelund bypass caps are amazing and worth the money

let me rephrase my question is it worthwhile to put more expensive capacitors in the speaker like RTi A7/CSi A6? I just have doubts that the rest of the speaker is good enough so I can hear all the improvement that these expensive caps could/should bring?

@F1nut I wonder why Polk engineers have put bypass in RTi A series crossovers ( to make electrolytic caps sound better?). Would be interesting to hear what would happen with sound quality if I just removed original bypass in one of the speakers, hmmm.

@VR3 I guess you did not like Cornell Dubilier 940C as bypass? Could I then cheat by bypassing PX or Standard-Z caps on my tweeters with 0.01uF Duelund or Miflex perhaps?

@pitdogg2 if I had such knowledge of the caps I would be dispensing the advice rather than asking for it

VR3

I mean that is a personal question.

My average build all new point to point with inductors caps and resistors goes for 850 shipped. I wouldn't recommend spending more then that personally.

The problem with the rti series crossovers is everything... Super cheap coils, sand case resistors, mylar and electrolytic caps... Cheap wiring... All needs to be upgraded

zvucnik

here is interesting page on how Polk chose to upgrade their R series crossover, still sand resistors but new air coils, polypropylene capacitors with higher voltage rating and no electrolytics...

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/polklore/brand/inside-reserve-r200ae-upgraded-crossover-network.html

we upgraded the circuit board and the components themselves. We started by changing all of the steel laminate core inductors to air core. “This results in a much larger coil to keep the DC resistance the same,” explains Scott Orth, Polk’s Director of Audio Acoustical Systems. “The effect of the change is lower distortion, especially at high levels. For me, this is the most significant change.”

Electrolytic capacitors in the mid-bass channel were upgraded to polyester metal film capacitors, and 100V polypropylene and 100V polyester film caps in the tweeter channel were upgraded to 250V and 100V polypropylene capacitors, respectively, leading to improved clarity and reduced distortion. We also increased the power rating of all resistors, for better stability with temperature; this is most apparent when the speaker is played hard.

We upgraded the PCB by both increasing copper thickness and increasing board size to accommodate the larger components and allow for wider traces. Quick-connect hardware was changed from nickel plating to gold plating for even lower circuitry losses, which were already very low as a baseline.

The end result is “a speaker that has more of what I call ‘the black space between instruments,’” Orth says. “The very low-level distortion and noise are reduced, so the clarity and definition of the speaker are improved. To me, the speaker sounds more relaxed and able to communicate better. Reverb tails decay more cleanly, imaging is more precise, more low-level detail is revealed. The R200 was great to begin with; this change just lifts the veil a bit.”

VR3

The circuit board on the rtia series is awful, super thin traces.

The R200ae is a nice build but like anything there are still compromises.

F1nut

I wonder why Polk engineers have put bypass in RTi A series crossovers ( to make electrolytic caps sound better?).

It's common practice to use bypass caps with cheap electrolytic caps to help them. It's not necessary with superior film caps and my experience using bypass caps with film caps has a serious negative affect on the sound.

let me rephrase my question is it worthwhile to put more expensive capacitors in the speaker like RTi A7/CSi A6? I just have doubts that the rest of the speaker is good enough so I can hear all the improvement that these expensive caps could/should bring?

Upgrading mine resulted in a vast improvement.

zvucnik

@VR3 I am going to do point to point as well, but I was thinking of putting everything on larger board and mounting it on the side/bottom of the speakers (via woofer hole) rather than trying fit it all on the binding posts. Is there any reason why I should not do it that way?

zvucnik

F1nut wrote: »

I wonder why Polk engineers have put bypass in RTi A series crossovers ( to make electrolytic caps sound better?).

It's common practice to use bypass caps with cheap electrolytic caps to help them. It's not necessary with superior film caps and my experience using bypass caps with film caps has a serious negative affect on the sound.

Upgrading mine resulted in a vast improvement.

it is kind of strange that they used such a large value for bypass.

F1nut

.47uF is pretty small.

VR3

Yeah duelund bypass caps are .01uf

invalid

Duelund bypass caps are in a category all their own.

F1nut

Bypass caps when used with film caps add air/space to every single song on each and every recording. It just isn't real, not even close to what hears in a live performance.

VR3

I would say the duelund bypass caps add a hint of air but what they really excel at is injecting the tone of their capacitors into the sound signature. Duelund had a great sound character with some solid warmth, but not so much it sacrifices detailand grit that I really like.. I would say that is why they are such excellent bypass caps, they add enough warmth to tone down the air, it's a great combo.

ChrisD06

VR3 wrote: »

I would say the duelund bypass caps add a hint of air but what they really excel at is injecting the tone of their capacitors into the sound signature. Duelund had a great sound character with some solid warmth, but not so much it sacrifices detailand grit that I really like.. I would say that is why they are such excellent bypass caps, they add enough warmth to tone down the air, it's a great combo.

Should I replace my bypass caps with the same cap as my tweeter one (ClarityCap CSA) or should I use a different cap for the bypass in this case?

VR3

No, the only one I would recommend is duelund. In my experience any other type or brand in that position introduced more bad then good

ChrisD06

VR3 wrote: »

No, the only one I would recommend is duelund. In my experience any other type or brand in that position introduced more bad then good

So should I leave it stock or should I go out of my way to get a Duelund?

zvucnik

so I wonder then If I left electrolytic caps as they are for the tweeters and replaced the original mylar bypass (0.47uF) with 0.01uF duelund would that sound better than replacing the electrolytic cap with CSA and not doing bypass at all?

I guess in the end everything really boils down to your ears and your listening preferences - what sounds good to me might not sound good/better to you, right? Everyone has different set of ears in the end

Good example of this is that Tony Gee at Humble Homemade HiFi loves to use bypass and thinks that we should bypass every cap in direct path with Cornell Dubilier 940C, @F1nut hates bypass all together and @VR3 only likes bypass with high end stuff...

Only way to find out is to play around and try different combos and see what sounds better, but the problem is these caps take some time to burn in:

electrolytic only, delete Polk bypass - which will move up tweeter XO frequency a bit (0.47 is ~100Hz) and sound different by default?
electrolytic plus Cornell Dubilier 940C/CSA/duelund bypass

clarity PX only
clarity PX plus Cornell Dubilier 940C/CSA/duelund bypass

CSA Only
CSA plus Cornell Dubilier 940C/Miflex/duelund bypass

SeleniumFalcon

And then there's "double bypass" and even "triple bypass" capacitors. A 10uF capacitor would be paralleled by a 1uF capacitor which is paralleled by a 0.1uF capacitor. If memory serves the original MIT capacitors had three capacitors rolled into one.

pitdogg2

Typically when using much tighter tolerance and much better caps than stock the need for a bypass cap is nil. I've personally have never used them in mine.

ChrisD06

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Typically when using much tighter tolerance and much better caps than stock the need for a bypass cap is nil. I've personally have never used them in mine.

If I rebuilt my RT3000p crossovers, should I just omit it then?

I'm thinking Dueland bypass 3uF, ClarityCap CSA 3uF, or omit it... I'm not sure what to do for best sound.