Sub100 + Yamaha RX-V4 + M.A. CL-80

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sgery
sgery Posts: 12
Hi everybody

I built an outdoor sound system, the amplifier is a yamaha rx-v4 and the two speakers are Monitor Audio cl-80.
Since I felt the depth was not enough, I ordered a Polk sub100.
I tried several different connections and settings, but I still feel that the performance of the subwoofer is quite weak.
How can I get the most out of the system?

Current connection and settings:
The amplifier is set to bi-amp mode
The two cl-80 speakers are connected to the front output.
The sub-100 subwoofer is connected to the surround output, but only a 2-core cable was installed.
This is how we managed to get the most out of it so far:
SUB L+ > Surround L+
SUB L- > Surround R-

If I pulled out another cable and connected it like this, the result didn't get any better either:
SUB L+ > Surround L+
SUB L- > Surround L-
SUB R+ > Surround R+
SUB R- > Surround R-

I also tried using zone B settings on the amplifier, which only made it worse, but at least it was possible to set EQ and strength per channel.

What other solution could work?
Would it be necessary to buy an additional amplifier?

Comments

  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,588
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    Hello!
    It's difficult to get a great deal of bass performance with an outdoors system when compared to dealing with sound indoors. Most of the woofer's output radiates unheard away from the listener as opposed to being reflected off of floors, ceilings and walls when in a room.
    I believe you would be best served to use a separate amplifier with at least 200 watts per channel for the subwoofer. Maybe one of the Crown power amplifiers?
  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
    edited March 2023
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    thanks for the reply.

    Like Crown XLS 1002?
    should I connect it to the sub output of the yamaha amplifier?

    I don't have high expectations, but at the moment the loghitech 5.1 speaker gives much more depth outside, at least it would be good to reach that level.

    By the way, I installed bose freespace 51 speakers a long time ago for one of my customers - they sounded significantly better than this system. Unfortunately, the product is no longer available and there is nothing to replace it :(
  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,588
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    It looks like the Monitor Audio Climate 80 speakers have a low frequency response of 50Hz. I usually recommend doubling that frequency as a good target matching upper frequency goal of the subwoofer. So, that means the subwoofer has to play up to around 100Hz. The Polk Sub 100 has a built in low pass filter of 150Hz, so you could give it a full range signal and it should blend fairly well with the Monitor Audio speakers.
    The Yamaha doesn't appear to have line level outputs for front channels and the Crown doesn't appear to have speaker level inputs. So, you'll need a speaker level to line level converter such as the Russound ADP-1.2 available from Crutchfield to reduce the speaker level outputs of the Yamaha to line level inputs on the Crown.
  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
    edited March 2023
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    So if I understand correctly, I need the Crown XLS 1002 to drive the subwoofer. For this signal, do I take the signal from the output of the Yamaha surrond, which I convert to RCA output with the Russound ADP-1.2?

    If so, the only question is how to connect the crown to the subwoofer?


    Or can I use the yamaha sub output connected to the xls 1002 with an RCA Y cable?
  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,588
    edited March 2023
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    I think it would be better to use the front or main right and left speaker output to the Russound that way no signal processing will effect the bass frequencies. In the receiver's setup instructions keep the front speakers set to "large" and keep the sub out off. I think this is better than using the receiver's sub-out connection since the subwoofer has to play up in frequency to 100 or 150Hz and most sub-out signals are limited to 80Hz.
    Once the Russound has been connected to the Crown you would use regular right and left speaker wires.
  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
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    Okey, Thx!
    The wiring between the crown and the woofer, which is still not clear to me, since only 1 2-core cable goes from the crown to the woofer.
    I think I will connect the crown to bridge, but how should I connect it to the 4 cables for the subwoofer?

  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,588
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    The Sub 100 has a dual voice coil woofer so you should be able to parallel the two channel connections. Positive to positive and negative to negative. However, I've asked a friend at Polk to be sure, you might have a 2 ohm load which might be below the threshold for the Crown in a bridged mode. In other words when the Crown is operated in a bridged mode the minimum speaker impedance should be 4 ohms.
  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
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    I bought a Crown XLS 2002 type amplifier.
    I put it in bridge mode, and connected it to only one side of the sub100 subwoofer.
    I connected it equally to the sub output (the Yamaha has 2 sub rca outputs, so I could connect both sides). I couldn't find the recommended adapter in stock in Europe.
    So now it sounds quite powerful, but the other side is not connected to the subwoofer. I think that's how he reached the maximum volume.
    I also tried it by putting the Crown in stereo mode and connecting it with 4 cables, but it sounded much weaker.

    Is there any other way I should try to make it better or have I reached the top?

    By the way, I turned up the volume on the sub output of the yamaha amplifier and turned the volume to maximum on the crown amplifier - I can set the bass volume in the yamaha application at a value between ~60-80%.
  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,588
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    The subwoofer can be paralleled giving a 4 ohm speaker load. Just run a short piece of speaker wire linking the two positives together and another wire linking the two negatives together.



  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
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    zilne2wrnn2o.jpg
    pgqcjjann9lc.jpg

    if I connect it as suggested, there is no sound from the subwoofer.
  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,588
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    I'm completely confused. You have a red wire and a white wire at the amplifier, correct? You said earlier:

    "..but only a 2-core cable was installed".

    I understood that to mean the wire that goes to the subwoofer has two conductors. Is that correct?
  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
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    one cable goes from the amplifier to the subwoofer, which consists of 2 wires. one red and one white wire.
  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
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    0afbdbcxssal.jpg

    if I connect it like this, it sounds correct.
  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,588
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    Okay, all you need to do is go to the woofer, run a short piece of wire from the positive terminal, on the woofer, to the other positive terminal. Then run another short piece of wire from the negative terminal to the other negative terminal on the woofer.
  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
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    Ok, I will try it
    How is this different than when I simply connected the wires in the picture above? Does it matter if I run it through a separate cable?
  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
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    bz3q67igp9hf.jpg

    If i connected like this picture > parallel mode > there is no sound from the subwoofer

    maybe I should try in series connection?
  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,588
    edited March 2023
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    The only way that could happen is if the woofer's voice coils are not wired correctly internally. One of the coils has to be wired in opposite polarity from the other, cancelling each other out. One coil moves forward while the other is moving backward. As a test reverse one of the pairs, swap a positive and negative. Just one pair not both.
  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
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    I reversed it so it works now.
    Thanks for the tip, I never would have thought of that :)
    It sounded better, but since it's already night here, I couldn't try it.
    I will write about my experience tomorrow.
    Thanks for the help
  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,588
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    That's great, I'm glad it's working now!
  • sgery
    sgery Posts: 12
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    So, with the cable reversed, it now works perfectly, and it sounds strong enough. I have to drill down to the base somehow now, because it resonates.

    Thanks again for your help :)
  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,588
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    You're welcome, glad it worked out. Enjoy!