I have some 12-ish-year-old TSi200 speakers in my family room. Crossover upgrade question.

WyleyR
WyleyR Posts: 10
edited February 2023 in DIY, Mods & Tweaks
I have some 12-year-old TSi200 speakers in my family room. Given their age, I want to upgrade the crossovers, specifically the capacitors. I can't imagine that the resistors need replacing.

I'm leaning toward the Jantzen Standard-Z capacitors of the same capacitance rating that they're replacing. Has anyone here done this upgrade? Any advice?

Does anyone have a schematic for this speaker? I haven't been able to find it anywhere.
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Comments

  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,933
    Have you noticed an audible degradation in performance that has lead you to suspect the crossover components have started to drift out of specification?
  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,289
    If you haven’t noticed any type of issues with the sound, I’d probably just leave them alone. They are a decent everyday speaker, not sure if they are really worth going through the crossover unless you have issues
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  • WyleyR
    WyleyR Posts: 10
    I haven't noticed significant degradation, although I imagine it would be a gradual change over time. I've read electrolytic capacitors can degrade over time and have their performance change as well, which in theory could mean differences between the two speakers.
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,933
    Yeah, fair. I'm usually a big proponent of crossover upgrades, but in this case I would suggest saving up and putting the money toward a pair of Legend L100 or L200, or even Reserve R100 or R200.

    Any of these will dramatically outperform the TSi200, in my opinion.
  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,289
    Nail on the head drew. Take the 50 bucks you’d spend upgrading the crossovers and squirrel it away and pick up some
    R200’s if you are truly after a gain in performance. I’d argue at 200/pair the TSI200’s are a run until they die speaker and then go climb the upgrade tree.


    With that said not everyone is like us addicts here, so if you are completely happy with the performance of the TSI’s, I’d still say run them until you hear something strange. 11 years is in the grand scheme of things, not very long for a capacitor unless they have been massively abused
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

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  • WyleyR
    WyleyR Posts: 10
    edited February 2023
    Agreed on the R200. Read the "spinorama" results on them and they seem pretty good.

    At this point, rather than dropping the cash on the R200, I'd just like to squeeze the most I can out of these TSi200s. The big question is, of course, will new capacitors in the crossover improve the sound to at least what they were when they were new? And of course, the million dollar question is, would better capacitors than factory improve the speakers at all over new-from-the-factory?

    Edit: a word.
  • WyleyR
    WyleyR Posts: 10
    stangman67 wrote: »
    Nail on the head drew. Take the 50 bucks you’d spend upgrading the crossovers and squirrel it away and pick up some
    R200’s if you are truly after a gain in performance. I’d argue at 200/pair the TSI200’s are a run until they die speaker and then go climb the upgrade tree.


    With that said not everyone is like us addicts here, so if you are completely happy with the performance of the TSI’s, I’d still say run them until you hear something strange. 11 years is in the grand scheme of things, not very long for a capacitor unless they have been massively abused

    You make some good points. They haven't exactly been abused. Perhaps played pretty loudly at times, but that's what they're for of course.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,532
    I'll relate an experience with upgrading a budget speaker. While not your budget speakers I believe the results would be similar.

    The Standard Z isn't a good choice, IMO as they accentuate the sibilant sounds of S and T. The Superior Z is a better choice.

    Resistors absolutely make a different. Sand cast resistors are crap. Non-inductive wire wound resistors can be dirt cheap.

    So, I upgraded a budget speaker using Clarity CSA and Mills resistors. IIRC, I upgraded the inductors as well. The tweeter was upgraded, sound damping added, chassis wire upgraded, binding posts upgraded, etc. The result was an improvement over stock, but nothing I would call impressive. In the end it was a fun experiment, but a waste of time and money. I sold them and replaced them with a better stock speaker, in which I also upgraded the components with much better results.

    Basically, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • WyleyR
    WyleyR Posts: 10
    F1nut wrote: »
    Basically, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

    Although then at least the pig would be pretty!?!

    If I absolutely wanted to go ahead with the project, what brand of reasonably budget-friendly would you (and everyone else here) recommend I go with? I like the idea of getting capacitors that won't really degrade over time like (apparently) electrolytic capacitors do.

    I guess I could consider new resistors too, but I didn't know they degrade over time assuming they're not actually damaged.

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,532
    The Clarity CSA 250V version would be a good choice.

    It's not that sand cast resistors degrade, they don't. It's that they are crap to begin with. Mills are a good choice.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • WyleyR
    WyleyR Posts: 10
    F1nut wrote: »
    It's not that sand cast resistors degrade, they don't. It's that they are crap to begin with. Mills are a good choice.

    Ahh, so changing the resistors to something better might be helpful. Do you have a recommendation?
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    edited February 2023
    You can get a more detailed (less hollow) sound out of the TSi drivers simply by adding a 3/16" thick layer of open-cell foam to the inner spokes. Then add a layer of butyl mat/Dynamat to the outer frame. Some fresh caps and resistors, the tweeters will clean up no doubt.

    yj356bns3bhe.png
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,532
    WyleyR wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    It's not that sand cast resistors degrade, they don't. It's that they are crap to begin with. Mills are a good choice.

    Ahh, so changing the resistors to something better might be helpful. Do you have a recommendation?

    Yes, I stated Mills. You may find them named Vishay-Mills.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Keiko
    Keiko Posts: 764
    WyleyR wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Basically, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

    Although then at least the pig would be pretty!?!

    I once knew a guy that could've had any pig from the pen that he wanted. One day, he made his choice and out of all them pigs in the pen, he picked the ugliest one.

  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Keiko wrote: »
    WyleyR wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Basically, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

    Although then at least the pig would be pretty!?!

    I once knew a guy that could've had any pig from the pen that he wanted. One day, he made his choice and out of all them pigs in the pen, he picked the ugliest one.

    But he had and endless supply of bacon-wrapped pork chops.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • WyleyR
    WyleyR Posts: 10
    xschop wrote: »
    You can get a more detailed (less hollow) sound out of the TSi drivers simply by adding a 3/16" thick layer of open-cell foam to the inner spokes. Then add a layer of butyl mat/Dynamat to the outer frame. Some fresh caps and resistors, the tweeters will clean up no doubt.

    Okay, now we're talking. I love tweaks like this that might actually make something outperform its original design.

    Have you done this mod? Did it make much of a difference for you?

    Are there other "mods" that people here have done?

  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    I did this to a set of TSi-100's and now they are my desk/computer near-field monitors. I phased plugged the drivers too. The sound is excellent and well balanced. Mids are no longer harsh/hollow. I also simply added a 6x6x 5/8" thick open-cell foam square behind the Mids because the TSi100's do not come with damping/Dacron from factory. I haven't even removed the caps or resistors (yet)

    fzhk1dpn6xwe.jpg
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  • WyleyR
    WyleyR Posts: 10
    xschop wrote: »
    I haven't even removed the caps or resistors (yet)

    I'm sorry, but why would you remove the capacitors and resistors from the crossover circuit?

  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    edited February 2023
    To put in better/new caps and resistors. F1 is right, factory sand cast vs wire-wound resistors will lose every time.
    Post edited by xschop on
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,403
    I don't recall the TSI's using doped paper cones...
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  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,289
    I don't recall the TSI's using doped paper cones...

    Def not the original mids
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Those are original TSi mids. The dust cap glue that Polk used had chemically delaminated the gold color cone treatment and I was able to easily peel it off.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,403
    xschop wrote: »
    Those are original TSi mids. The dust cap glue that Polk used had chemically delaminated the gold color cone treatment and I was able to easily peel it off.

    Pics or it didn't happen. Sure looks like a doped paper cone to me.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,289
    xschop wrote: »
    Those are original TSi mids. The dust cap glue that Polk used had chemically delaminated the gold color cone treatment and I was able to easily peel it off.

    I stand corrected. Weird setup though with a colored cone cover.
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    edited February 2023
    It is doped, because I re-doped them. They'll last longer than what the factory tried.

    I posted about it somewhere here, F1 can tell you all about it.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,532
    Sorry, I can't keep track of the insanity.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Here ya go...

    dzcadxkvnglt.png

    kpyz8x80d30e.png

    Besides these mods, the biggest and easiest SQ gains for the TSi mids are inner frame foam and butyl mat.



    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • WyleyR
    WyleyR Posts: 10
    xschop wrote: »
    Here ya go...

    Besides these mods, the biggest and easiest SQ gains for the TSi mids are inner frame foam and butyl mat.

    OMG, what did you do to your speaker cones? That can't have improved the sound.

  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    edited February 2023
    Sounds MUCH better than the nasty loose dust cap sound that was emanating from that one.
    They actually sound like the vintage doped-paper cones.

    So what size caps are in your TSi-200s?
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  • WyleyR
    WyleyR Posts: 10
    The two larger capacitors are as follows:
    • 10uF 50V
    • 2uF 50V