Imaging Question

msg

Got a question for you guys.

For a long while now, I've noticed that on pretty much all my systems, since I've started paying more attention to imaging, a lot of the time, the vocalist and/or main player is not directly centered.

If this were just one system, I'd chalk it up to a setup issue, but it's not just one system. It's consistent across my serious systems.

Do you guys have laser centered main "player" or singer imaging, or do you notice more that they're placed off center on the "stage", the other players locatable as well?

When I'm listening, I can look at a place in space where the various audio players appear to be. Singers, different guitars, piano, keyboards. Drums sometimes have depth.

Other pieces, the main player is more directly centered.

Just wondering if it's just me.

Good ears, left ear dominant.

I will say that my two serious systems right now are still in sort of long term adjustment. (Are we ever really done tweaking?)

I was talking to @Clipdat about this, and tried adjusting speaker placement a bit within reason. Nothing really looks out of place.

Could definitely be space related. In each of these systems, the left side opens up a bit more than the right, where a wall is closer.

Main player is slightly right biased in most cases.

SIHAB

My imaging of myself is laser tight.

mhardy6647

msg wrote: »

Got a question for you guys...

Try some in-phase, mono noise and see if it's centered.
The Stereophile CDs have in and outta phase noise for such tests.

The big-boy hifi upstairs does an amazing job of centering sound that is meant by a recording's producer to be centered (FWIW).

So... yeah... probably you.
Like Bob...



EDIT: In all seriousness -- and even though I don't have one -- in the real world, it is really very nice to have, and to use, a balance control. Even though the ancients taught that a 1 dB difference is barely detectable, it is enough to throw a spanner into the works when it comes to things like centering IME and IMO. Even less of a difference between channels may be audible in the sense that the difference is noteworthy once it's corrected.
The frequency range probably matters, too -- our hearing is, of course, most sensitive to the midrange. Evolution selected for that, or our ancestors would've all been devoured by that kitty's mirror image in an earlier post.

VR3

In general, center imaging for me is dead center 95% but every so often a song is recorded differently...

Assuming all gear is functioning correctly, you could be experiencing this due to the room or even perhaps your ears...

I would recommend adjusting the speakers to a song you know for certain is center imaged.

bcwsrt

I have a wall about 3ft from the right speaker and an open area to the left, similar to what I think you are describing you have. Still, the soundstage has the main vocal dead center for me, but somewhat dependent on the material, I suppose. A left or right bias would be something that I would notice and probably obsess over if it was there. Is it something that an adjustment of the balance knob can correct?

treitz3

Here are my thoughts. It would be best for all of us to pick one song, where the lead singer is dead center, slightly up from tweeter height.

THEN, we can say for sure that what you are hearing is correct or skewed.

I also have some imaging tests on CD's that will be helpful to you. If you stream music, I'll try to find them on the platform you use. It won't be tonight but if you are interested, I'll share what CD's I do have. If they are still available and not unobtainable, it might be of interest to you to check them out.

They test height to the ceiling, depth back to about 12 to 18 feet, center, forward and in between imaging. FWIW.

Tom

msg

Good info here guys, thanks. Along same lines of what drew was saying, too.

I'll play around s'more.

One of the systems has balance control, and I'm able to shift it, but I don't like doing that.

With at least 3pr headphones and/or earbuds, I don't get any sense of imbalance.

I'm thinking room, wall, or speaker placement.

msg

That's a good idea, Tom.
I would also be interested in those CDs you're talking about.

So is Mark's note about the Stereophile test CDs. I have one of those I can check out.

Also, one of these integrateds, an HK 990, has a correction function with mic placement at three different locations, if I'm understanding correctly from very brief skim of this part of the manual. I could try. running to see if it makes any adjustments. I'll have to read more to see what it does, though. May just be EQ.

Which reminds me, I need to see about factory reset of that unit. Completely forgot about that. Other integrated is MF A5.

treitz3

Here ya' go, Scott. Most all of the really good stuff is already located in this thread (link below). My favorite two are the Chesky LEDR and the IsoTek Test disc where this happens....

"The guy stands in the middle of a medium sized room and as he is talking, giving you a sense of the middle of the room, the castanet walks around him in a 360 circle. It was so cool to "see" the image of both and their exact placement as he walked around the room. There was no guessing where he was, you could easily pinpoint where both were in the room. From a couple of meters back behind the loudspeakers to basically 3 feet in front of you in a 360 degree circle."

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/189500/testing-your-rig-are-you-up-to-the-task/p1

I can say with full certainty that if you pass these two tests? Your rig is spot on. If ANY issue raises itself? Then at least you know where to look.

Tom

bcwsrt

msg wrote: »

...
One of the systems has balance control, and I'm able to shift it, but I don't like doing that.
...

I'm with you and actually glad you said that. I don't like balance controls about as much as I don't like tone controls, but thought it was worth suggesting.

msg

Tom, excellent, thanks sir.

bc - well, those controls are there for a reason, and maybe this will turn out to be one of those cases that it's required. At your note re: balance, I fave it a shot to see how far off it is. Got 12 ticks. Shifting left by 3 gets it mostly centered, so it's definitely off for some reason.

I've got a tendency sometimes to miss the obvious, so I'll take my time in the assessment and thinking this over.

Re: the above, there are two big obvious space issues I didn't fully detail earlier, mostly because I wasn't thinking about the space properly at all. This was currently just intended as a very loose and rough test setup for this HK 990, but it turned out to be incredibly enjoyable, so it's been sitting here getting near full time, sit-down listening enjoyment for coming up on 2 weeks now. (not good, but good!)

Anyway, the space - no left wall, AND about 8ft back to the left, there's a short hall that leads to a T at another hall! It's essentially a hole, or big, rectangular tube back behind the left channel. Guess something like this or other room object fill imbalance could be causing this effect.

Again though, it's not just this system, though the other system of concern also no left wall.

Anyway, got some work to do. Thanks so far, guys!

Tom - feels like 2014 all over again when you welcomed me to the forum, one of the guys answering my obsessive newbie questions!, me trying to run RTi10s for music with a "75wpc" cheap Pio AVR... you and Jesse, Tonyb, pearsal, Geoff and a few others...

VR3

2 channel balance control is moving one speaker forward or backwards 😁

treitz3

msg wrote: »

Tom - feels like 2014 all over again when you welcomed me to the forum <snip>

Didn't do it. Can't prove it.....nobody saw a thing.....

Tom

Gardenstater

I use the app on my phone that has 0.1dB resolution and feed whitenoise to both the L and R speakers (not at the same time) with the mic at the listening position and adjust one of the input pots on my amp to level. Now another way would be to send a sine tone that is smack dab in the middle of the vocal range and level with that. Room effects I'm sure are a factor.

audioluvr

In my 2 ch room the right wall is closer and I have main singers that often appear slightly to the right of center as well. It used to bug me and would try using the balance control to correct it but then I wouldn't like that end result either so I basically accepted it as me not getting front row center seats.

Also I have tinnitus in my left ear from decades of work around heavy equipment so I blame to to make me feel better.

treitz3

In tight spots, one can always balance the sound out with a false wall....or in this case an office type divider. It may not be ideal visually but the end result is a balanced system.



Tom

heiney9

Yes, I always try to set up the rig so I'm exactly between the 2 speakers. There are recordings out there that are recorded a bit different. Many of them are older 60's and 70's stuff. Early Zep and Hendrix are two examples that come to mind that don't always have the singer in the middle or drums, etc.

By and large, yes the singer is dead center.

H9

invalid

Do you have anything in between your speakers?

txcoastal1

Here is a simple dead center test song. If Sky is not dead center then you have a problem. She will be larger than life in the room or your speakers. Tom @treitz3, this song is fun with large speakers like yours. When I set up my big Dyn C4's at LSAF in one of the big rooms down stairs, she was taller than my speakers.
2CELLOS - Bang Bang ft. Sky Ferreira

https://youtu.be/EH3eYCpvw50

treitz3

Ron, that's available on Tidal. Judging by my computer speakers, it sounds much better than the You-Tube video. I have guests in the house now for the holidays, so no listening right now but I'd like to hear it on the big rig. I love Cello's on this system.

BTW, what's the second pic for?

Tom

Geoff4rfc

msg wrote: »

Tom - feels like 2014 all over again when you welcomed me to the forum, one of the guys answering my obsessive newbie questions!, me trying to run RTi10s for music with a "75wpc" cheap Pio AVR... you and Jesse, Tonyb, pearsal, Geoff and a few others...

Lol DANG Scotty!!!! Has it almost been 10 years already??? Sheeze dude! I believe I remember your RTi10 days, hey, we use what we have and we do what we do and hopefully progress from there.

Yes sir, all good feedback for your post. I'm in line with speaker placement and you may be light years ahead of this suggestion however, when I'm setting up a new area, I'll take the measurements of the distance from my mains to the seating position and look up what the recommended width should be between them. Then make sure nothing is breaking the plane for sound travel, then toe them in so the apex of the axis is about 3' behind my head from the sweet spot.

I've experienced with the apex right in front of me, right "at" the sweet spot and various distances behind me. I've also noticed that the distance between you and the speakers and the depth of your room all come into play when toeing in the mains.

Now if I'm 20 miles behind the power curve here, I apologize for boring you with information you're already familiar with. And if all else fails, just turn up the volume

txcoastal1

treitz3 wrote: »

Ron, that's available on Tidal. Judging by my computer speakers, it sounds much better than the You-Tube video. I have guests in the house now for the holidays, so no listening right now but I'd like to hear it on the big rig. I love Cello's on this system.

BTW, what's the second pic for?

Tom

That was my system setup at LSAF in one of the conference rooms where I first played the song

jbreezy5

@msg

I use the following video to ensure I have L/R correct (some gear inverts phase and you have to swap L/R cables to fix it).

Lead vocalist is left of center, back-up singer is at center.

If you have this right, the anomalies you’re hearing at center on other recordings are likely how the recording was produced.

If this video isn’t playing back with singers positioned L/R correctly, your soundstage is going away from center, which is why things don’t sound right.

https://youtu.be/0DLeH2FWFTE

msg

This is all great info, guys, thanks.
[meant to write back but got kinda sidetracked over the holidays. thought I'd work this time since was supposed to be slow. it was not.]

George - that's an interesting technique. I've always just set the knobs at max. These are all integrated amps, but your post got me thinking about the age of this and the other integrateds, and that it would probably make sense to check the bias. In fact, the other main systems also use older integrated amps that should probably be checked out.

Rob - thanks! I didn't realize this was something that could occur from the wall thing, but sounds like it could be a common denominator.

Tom - Kerry and I were talking a while back about wall ideas similar to what you post there. Another great reminder and something to try.

I've had a few system changes recently, and pretty sure now this was likely speaker placement, even though everything looked right. I'll try to reproduce. Want to spend some more time on this thread, too.

I'd like to explore the other imaging effects besides just center imaging. Looking to learn about depth and height.

Inadvertently had a great depth experience. There was some passage in a track called "We Go Up" by the Dreadful Yawns where the music actually makes an approach up the center from the distance! I'd never experienced that before, but I chalk that one up to having speakers significantly away from the wall.

Gardenstater

I just checked that track out and it is just as you describe. Center image instruments increase in volume and elevation. Cool! Found it on the album "Rest" if anyone else wants to check it