Is a tube buffer a good thing?

newbie308

So, here's the background on this question. I Purchased the Marantz CD4000 with Ah Njoe upgraded 6922 tube output stage from @Clipdat a few months ago. I love the sound of the Marantz, but the display is very dim (barely visible in any light) and the CD player chokes on several of my less than perfect disks. I recently found a new in the box Oppo BDP-103 for a great price, so I purchased (stole) it. The Oppo plays through everything I throw at it. I like that it can play just about every format of music disk available, too. The Oppo plays well, but I'm missing the sweet sound that the Marantz produced. I was wondering if I could get that back with a tube buffer, but I have zero experience with buffers. Which ones are good, better, best. What I should look for as a tube compliment? Etc. Or should I just learn to like what I hear from the Oppo and be happy with it? Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

pitdogg2

I used a Yaqin tube buffer that used two 6sn7 tubes. It did make a difference, it's not to be confused with a tube output stage. I'm not sure the tube output stage could be the same as a tube buffer. The tube buffer is considered a cathode follower. If the tube output stage in the Marantz is the same type of circuit then it may work.

The other difference is the Marantz is definitly voiced warmer and more musical than the Oppo stuff. This being said I do own a Oppo 205 and the difference between my Oppo and my Krell for SACD's it's Krell all day.
I'd look for the Yaqin that uses 6sn7 tubes on the used market, they're not very expensive and it should give you a good idea at not too much out of pocket.

jdjohn

I have an Eastern Electric MiniMax Booster Buffer Amplifier (BBA) that I sometimes put into rotation. http://www.eeaudio.com/eeaudio_009.htm I've placed between components on occasion, and also used it purely as a single input/output preamp. I can't detect a huge tube sound with it, though. It has separate gain and volume controls, and is touted to help with impedance mismatches between components, if that is presenting a problem.

mhardy6647

A well designed tube buffer will do nothing to the signal, and it will operate at unity gain. Google, e.g., "cathode follower" and see how a triode can be used to make a phenomenally good buffer. A properly designed tube buffer will improve impedance matching (which is what a buffer does -- or, at least, what it should do). Buffering (with a tube or with solid state gizmos) can certainly have a positive sonic effect, if (and only if) impedance matching is an issue between two components.

Now, here's the thing.

About 10 or 15 years ago, there was a plague fad of really cheap and cheezy "tube buffers", mostly from a large Asian country*. Though sold as "tube buffers", these were, by and large, in fact "effects boxes" (as a guitarist would call them) with designs deliberately (or otherwise), ummm, designed to add some... ummm... color to the sound. They tend(ed) to run their tubes at very unfavorable operating points (e.g., very low plate voltage) which is guaranteed to make them nonlinear generators of all sorts of distortion.

If that's what you want, you can certainly get it. Some kinds of distortion are quite pleasant to listen to.

______________
* A country that is perfectly capable of making and selling very good audio equipment.

invalid

You could also use a tube buffer to convert an unbalanced signal into a balanced signal, some have that ability like this one.

Clipdat

I would avoid using one because IMO less is more.

invalid

Clipdat wrote: »

I would avoid using one because IMO less is more.

If that is true, then we should all be using single ended triode amps with high sensitivity speakers. Tube buffers got a bad rep from all the cheap ones bing sold.

motorstereo

I had a Yaqin buffer here for a brief visit. I couldn't notice any change in the sound and neither could the fellow I bought it from which is why he sold it to me. The good thing is it sold quickly for what I paid for it. I also had a vintage Pioneer tubed reverb unit here to play with. That unit changed the sound even the gain turned way down. But the change was not to my liking.
My thoughts are money could be better spent elsewhere rather than on these devices.

Clipdat

invalid wrote: »

Clipdat wrote: »

I would avoid using one because IMO less is more.

If that is true, then we should all be using single ended triode amps with high sensitivity speakers. Tube buffers got a bad rep from all the cheap ones bing sold.

lol I said "IMO "which means in my opinion. I never said it was a truth. Rock on if you want to use more stuff in your signal path, but I won't be doing so.

newbie308

I suppose another option would be to use the Oppo as a transport and find a DAC that would give me the sound I'm looking for?

Emlyn

I've had a couple of Musical Fidelity X10v3 tube buffers and the matching power supply and DAC in the audio closet for years. Got them on sale when they were practically giving them away. I may drag one out and give it a run again. From what I remember it either made a slight difference or none at all depending on what I was using one with. I stopped using them altogether when I got a Musical Fidelity A5 CD player.

jbreezy5

newbie308 wrote: »

I suppose another option would be to use the Oppo as a transport and find a DAC that would give me the sound I'm looking for?

I would agree with the majority here that tube buffers are not the way to go. I had the Musical Fidelity x10v3 also and was not happy with it. You can probably find my write-up “Some people gotta learn the hard way”, on this forum why I didn’t like it.

A good quality solid-state DAC or tube-dac (meaning tubes in the output stage) should give a more musical result with the Oppo as transport.

Maybe try Denafrips Ares II (haven’t heard this myself) or look for a used Jolida Tubedac III (happy owner; new production Tung-sol 5751 sounds superb in this dac if you can find them).

Emlyn

A tube preamp may be a better route. Something like an Anthem Pre-2L or Sonic Frontiers Line 1 on the used market. Plenty of other choices down that road but not necessarily inexpensive.

heiney9

newbie308 wrote: »

I suppose another option would be to use the Oppo as a transport and find a DAC that would give me the sound I'm looking for?

This is probably the best solution. Not the least expensive, but best, IMO.

H9

heiney9

Emlyn wrote: »

A tube preamp may be a better route. Something like an Anthem Pre-2L or Sonic Frontiers Line 1 on the used market. Plenty of other choices down that road but not necessarily inexpensive.

This is also a good recommendation.

mhardy6647

invalid wrote: »

Clipdat wrote: »

I would avoid using one because IMO less is more.

If that is true, then we should all be using single ended triode amps with high sensitivity speakers...

Wait, you mean some of y'all don't?

Tube buffers got a bad rep from all the cheap ones bing sold.

Yup. Although most components won't need a good one. I could absolutely see using a good buffer (ss or vacuum tube) with a "passive preamp" (like an AVC or TVC, that is) to improve matching to the power amplifier. Indeed, it'd be a good thing to for me to try sometime...

audioluvr

I don't know what a tube buffer is so I was thinking something sexual. My bad.

newbie308

jbreezy5 wrote: »

newbie308 wrote: »

I suppose another option would be to use the Oppo as a transport and find a DAC that would give me the sound I'm looking for?

I would agree with the majority here that tube buffers are not the way to go. I had the Musical Fidelity x10v3 also and was not happy with it. You can probably find my write-up “Some people gotta learn the hard way”, on this forum why I didn’t like it.

A good quality solid-state DAC or tube-dac (meaning tubes in the output stage) should give a more musical result with the Oppo as transport.

Maybe try Denafrips Ares II (haven’t heard this myself) or look for a used Jolida Tubedac III (happy owner; new production Tung-sol 5751 sounds superb in this dac if you can find them).

I spent a few hours last night looking at tube DAC's and Tube preamps. I really love the phono section on the Threshold SL10, so I am reluctant to change my preamp, and it would be a shame to separate it from the Threshold amplifier. Based on that, I am open to suggestions for a quality DAC (new or used) that is in the $850 - $1400 price range and produces a sweeter "tube" sound. I understand that R to R DAC's are supposed to have a more analog sound, so I would probably like that. I saw a Musical Fidelity Trivista 21 for about $1k delivered while searching. I was also looking at a Audio Note Kit 2.1 DAC. It's a little more than I was looking to spend at $1750 right now, but I can wait and save for it.

dromunds

I’m going to be selling a PS Audio Gain Cell DAC.

jbreezy5

newbie308 wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

newbie308 wrote: »

I suppose another option would be to use the Oppo as a transport and find a DAC that would give me the sound I'm looking for?

I would agree with the majority here that tube buffers are not the way to go. I had the Musical Fidelity x10v3 also and was not happy with it. You can probably find my write-up “Some people gotta learn the hard way”, on this forum why I didn’t like it.

A good quality solid-state DAC or tube-dac (meaning tubes in the output stage) should give a more musical result with the Oppo as transport.

Maybe try Denafrips Ares II (haven’t heard this myself) or look for a used Jolida Tubedac III (happy owner; new production Tung-sol 5751 sounds superb in this dac if you can find them).

I spent a few hours last night looking at tube DAC's and Tube preamps. I really love the phono section on the Threshold SL10, so I am reluctant to change my preamp, and it would be a shame to separate it from the Threshold amplifier. Based on that, I am open to suggestions for a quality DAC (new or used) that is in the $850 - $1400 price range and produces a sweeter "tube" sound. I understand that R to R DAC's are supposed to have a more analog sound, so I would probably like that. I saw a Musical Fidelity Trivista 21 for about $1k delivered while searching. I was also looking at a Audio Note Kit 2.1 DAC. It's a little more than I was looking to spend at $1750 right now, but I can wait and save for it.

I’ve had my eye on MF Tri-vista 21 also this year.

Seems like a good option.

maxward

Good review of that Audio Note kit in the Absolute Sound magazine maybe 12-18 months ago (can’t find my copy right now).

treitz3

jbreezy5 wrote: »

I’ve had my eye on MF Tri-vista 21 also this year.

What's your budget?

Tom

zarghoonalizada

looks good thing never used

jbreezy5

treitz3 wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

I’ve had my eye on MF Tri-vista 21 also this year.

What's your budget?

Tom

Lets say up to $3,000.

newbie308

Update!! Yesterday I decided to tinker a bit. I have a Musical Fidelity V90 DAC that I have been using while streaming. I decided to connect it to the RCA digital output from the Oppo BDP-103, and the result was splendid! The music is sweet and involving again! Now I absolutely know which direction to go. I will squirrel away some money and continue to research the plethora of DAC's available until I can make a decision and purchase a quality R2R DAC that I can enjoy for years to come.

Joey_V

Honestly man. It’s what you like. If it makes you listen to more music for longer, it’s the right move.