2 channel connected to 3.1 setup?

jdeecraigslist

I am a noob at this, so bear with me... my cheap equipment got fried in a power surge recently so I need something new.

I want a nice stereo setup for my turntable and high res audio files. I have a 3.1 setup for TV and movies with Polk LSiM 703's and a 704c center. How do achieve both of these with the same speaker setup?

I was looking into a Marantz pm8006 for music (2.1 amp w/phono), but what do I do for the AVR portion? I don't need anything fancy for the AVR, just something that can switch between TV, 2 gaming consoles, and has clean audio pass-through for music.

Any recommendations? Am I going about this all wrong, maybe I should get an all-in-one integrated setup? Different amp? Any suggestions welcome.

rooftop59

You have three main options:

1. Get a higher end avr that is voiced more for music than HT, and use it for both. Cambridge audio, NAD, and Arcam are three brands that come to mind. I have both Cambridge and Arcam receivers and they sound pretty darn good for two channel music (the arcam sounds amazing, but it is much more $$$)
2. Better (maybe) option: get the cheapest avr that has multichannel preamp outputs from denon, Yamaha, or Marantz and then get a used two channel power amp like a parasound, rotel, Marantz, etc. (I really liked a 200 wpc rotel with my 703s in this configuration).
3. Best option: get an avr with preamp outputs and a good integrated two channel amplifier with home theater bypass. That way the avr just does the DAC and the integrated does the volume and power. Even better if you get a separate DAC down the road and skip the avr for music altogether.

FYI, I have a Cambridge integrated with HT bypass that I will be listing shortly if you are interested…

Emlyn

How big is the budget?

Using a cheap receiver with LSiM speakers could end up being an expensive mistake if the speakers are damaged by not having enough power to drive them properly. I would recommend getting a new five channel separate amp like an Outlaw Audio product (Model 5000x for under $800) to provide a solid base to drive the speakers and give room for future growth. And buy a used receiver with preamplifier outputs and dual subwoofer outputs to bring everything together.

The LSiM speakers are not cheap speakers and need quality gear to drive them properly. And get a surge protector to protect the new gear.

jbreezy5

First things first…

“…my cheap equipment got fried in a power surge…”

1) Get a good quality device that provides surge protection, battery back-up, voltage regulation, and line purification (e.g. APC, CyberPower, Panamax, etc.).

https://www.microcenter.com/product/623674/cyberpower-systems-gx15000u-1500va-sine-wave-lcd-ups

Then, go back to @rooftop59 suggestions above.

Your budget/priorities will likely be the biggest deciding factor which approach to take.

jdeecraigslist

rooftop59 wrote: »

You have three main options:

1. Get a higher end avr that is voiced more for music than HT, and use it for both. Cambridge audio, NAD, and Arcam are three brands that come to mind. I have both Cambridge and Arcam receivers and they sound pretty darn good for two channel music (the arcam sounds amazing, but it is much more $$$)
2. Better (maybe) option: get the cheapest avr that has multichannel preamp outputs from denon, Yamaha, or Marantz and then get a used two channel power amp like a parasound, rotel, Marantz, etc. (I really liked a 200 wpc rotel with my 703s in this configuration).
3. Best option: get an avr with preamp outputs and a good integrated two channel amplifier with home theater bypass. That way the avr just does the DAC and the integrated does the volume and power. Even better if you get a separate DAC down the road and skip the avr for music altogether.

FYI, I have a Cambridge integrated with HT bypass that I will be listing shortly if you are interested…

Emlyn wrote: »

How big is the budget?

Using a cheap receiver with LSiM speakers could end up being an expensive mistake if the speakers are damaged by not having enough power to drive them properly. I would recommend getting a new five channel separate amp like an Outlaw Audio product (Model 5000x for under $800) to provide a solid base to drive the speakers and give room for future growth. And buy a used receiver with preamplifier outputs and dual subwoofer outputs to bring everything together.

The LSiM speakers are not cheap speakers and need quality gear to drive them properly. And get a surge protector to protect the new gear.

jbreezy5 wrote: »

First things first…

“…my cheap equipment got fried in a power surge…”

1) Get a good quality device that provides surge protection, battery back-up, voltage regulation, and line purification (e.g. APC, CyberPower, Panamax, etc.).

https://www.microcenter.com/product/623674/cyberpower-systems-gx15000u-1500va-sine-wave-lcd-ups

Then, go back to @rooftop59 suggestions above.

Your budget/priorities will likely be the biggest deciding factor which approach to take.

Wow, these are all great suggestions. I definitely learned my lesson with the cheap "surge protector" (does nothing) and will be getting a UPS.

Regarding a low power amp ruining the speakers, it output 75w at 4 ohms for the center channel but 75w combined for the L/R channels at 4 ohms. Not sure what this means for the 8 ohm 20-200w range on the LSiMs, but sounds like it is probably too low.

I like "option 3" above, an AVR with with preamp outputs and a good amplifier with home theater bypass. My budget is really variable, I don't mind high quality used gear and don't want to waste money on something just because it's the latest thing. I would say $2k-3k for the AVR and amp would be on the high side.

jbreezy5

Here’s a couple amps within your budget, if you decide to get a receiver w/preouts:

(3-channel 200wpc)
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15594

(7-channel 130wpc)
https://outlawaudio.com/shop/power_amplifiers/25-model-7000x.html

F1nut

Forget the UPS idea. Get real surge protection from the likes of SurgeX.

jbreezy5

F1nut wrote: »

Forget the UPS idea. Get real surge protection from the likes of SurgeX.

@jdeecraigslist

No need to be confused by the above post.

Surge X offers the same features/protections (e.g. surge protection, line filtration, voltage regulation) as the Cyberpower Sine-wave UPS. However, the Surge X doesn’t include battery back-up.

Uninterrupted power supplies (UPS) allow you to turn off your equipment properly, avoiding potential damage that may occur from a sudden loss of power.

Also, the Home Theater Surge X xr315 is $899. The Cyberpower is approx. $200.

F1nut

I'm talking about the SurgeX branch device.

jdeecraigslist

jbreezy5 wrote: »

Here’s a couple amps within your budget, if you decide to get a receiver w/preouts:

(3-channel 200wpc)
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15594

(7-channel 130wpc)
https://outlawaudio.com/shop/power_amplifiers/25-model-7000x.html

Holy cow, that Monolith is a beefy power amp (in size, power, and cost)!
What does 200 wpc do for me vs a lesser value, does it just increase max speaker volume or does it improve clarity, dynamics, sound quality?

Why should I get that $1300 Monolith power amp over say, a Marantz PM8006 integrated amp (2ch but has a nice phono input) for $800 manufacturer refurb? I guess I'm confused where the Monolith fits into a system with a receiver and how I would get the best stereo 2ch audio quality while keeping 3.1 for TV.

jbreezy5

jdeecraigslist wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

Here’s a couple amps within your budget, if you decide to get a receiver w/preouts:

(3-channel 200wpc)
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15594

(7-channel 130wpc)
https://outlawaudio.com/shop/power_amplifiers/25-model-7000x.html

Holy cow, that Monolith is a beefy power amp (in size, power, and cost)!
What does 200 wpc do for me vs a lesser value, does it just increase max speaker volume or does it improve clarity, dynamics, sound quality?

Why should I get that $1300 Monolith power amp over say, a Marantz PM8006 integrated amp (2ch but has a nice phono input) for $800 manufacturer refurb? I guess I'm confused where the Monolith fits into a system with a receiver and how I would get the best stereo 2ch audio quality.

Context is important to answering your question.

Up to this point you received 3 options for how to proceed from @rooftop59. @Emlyn explained that receiver power may be insufficient to drive your LSI Polks. I agree with both of them.

Watt power ratings can be misleading. The real issue is stable current delivery to your speakers. Most receivers are so packed with features that they have to be built to a price-point. The most expensive part of an amplifier is the power transformer, which is where most receivers have to skimp to be profitable.

The amplifiers I mentioned to you have toroidal transformers which are excellent at storing current, quietly. The amps shared also have sufficient heat-sinking (it would appear) to keep them cool-running (heat destroys electronic components).

The first amp I shared is a 3-channel amp; your post centered around a system that would serve double-duty as HT and stereo and required 3 channels of amplification. Hence, the suggestion. A 200wpc amplifier will be able to drive your LSIs handily.

The second amp is a 7-channel amp (would allow you expand your system down the road, or even run a 2nd zone system, if you were so inclined). It also has a toroidal transformer and good heat-sinking (the aluminum fins you see inside). Rated at 130wpc, it will still easily drive your speakers due to good current storage capabilities.

The rule of thumb concerning loudness is that for every doubling of watt-power your amp will play 3dB louder. This is pretty academic for most people, as we seldom come close to reaching the power output capabilities of an amplifier while listening; especially when considering watt-power used RMS (consistent levels during playback) vs. dynamic power (peaks). Most dedicated amplifiers provide somewhere between 26-29 dB of amplification (more than plenty).

Before you buy anything, maybe go to a local Best Buy Magnolia store and listen to some music through an AVR, then listen some McIntosh amplification to find out if you hear a difference, and whether you thinks it is preferable or not.

Watch the watt-power rating on the McIntosh amp meters and you will see how little watt-power you actually use while listening.

Yet, you will likely hear a significant difference in sound quality going from the AVR to the McIntosh (or Rotel, or whatever other dedicated amp they have on display), then back to the AVR. Just make sure you use the same set of speakers for the listening test.

I can tell you that using a dedicated amp will have a lower noise floor, deeper and more impactful bass, a bigger soundstage, etc., but it won’t mean squat unless you hear it for yourself.

You had said that your budget would top out at $2k-$3k.

A used modern receiver + Outlaw amp (cited above) + Cyberpower UPS (also above) = roughly $1,500

That’s $500 below your max budget range!

Granted if you need a MM phono, you’ll have to look for that feature on the receiver you choose; or get a separate one to use on one of the receiver inputs. Decent entry-level ones can be had for around $100 in the used market.

jbreezy5

F1nut wrote: »

I'm talking about the SurgeX branch device.

Can you provide a link?

I don’t have anything against Surge X. I like what I read regarding how they do surge protection.

txcoastal1

I'm in the IT, AV, CCTV, Fire Alarm, Energy mgmt systems etc...for over 30yrs

First off some protection is better than no protection. Most surge are MOV protected which weaken even from pulses from typical electrical

SurgeX is non-MOV protection...Patented Advanced Series Mode technology
Utilizes inductive/ capacitive circuitry to totally eliminate—rather than suppress—the surge energy

Does not use MOV’s

• Absorbs and neutralizes surge energy
• Never degrades after repeated power anomalies
• Does not contaminate the ground wire with surge energy
• Zero ground plane contamination
• Zero Voltage Switching
• Includes:
• EMI and RFI noise filtering
• Over/Under voltage cutoff protection
• ICE–inrush current elimination

I use a combination of SurgeX and Furman for power conditioning some PSaudio. I have HT, PC's, servers, Pinball machines etc.

jdeecraigslist

jbreezy5 wrote: »

jdeecraigslist wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

Here’s a couple amps within your budget, if you decide to get a receiver w/preouts:

(3-channel 200wpc)
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15594

(7-channel 130wpc)
https://outlawaudio.com/shop/power_amplifiers/25-model-7000x.html

Holy cow, that Monolith is a beefy power amp (in size, power, and cost)!
What does 200 wpc do for me vs a lesser value, does it just increase max speaker volume or does it improve clarity, dynamics, sound quality?

Why should I get that $1300 Monolith power amp over say, a Marantz PM8006 integrated amp (2ch but has a nice phono input) for $800 manufacturer refurb? I guess I'm confused where the Monolith fits into a system with a receiver and how I would get the best stereo 2ch audio quality.

Context is important to answering your question.

Up to this point you received 3 options for how to proceed from @rooftop59. @Emlyn explained that receiver power may be insufficient to drive your LSI Polks. I agree with both of them.

Watt power ratings can be misleading. The real issue is stable current delivery to your speakers. Most receivers are so packed with features that they have to be built to a price-point. The most expensive part of an amplifier is the power transformer, which is where most receivers have to skimp to be profitable.

The amplifiers I mentioned to you have toroidal transformers which are excellent at storing current, quietly. The amps shared also have sufficient heat-sinking (it would appear) to keep them cool-running (heat destroys electronic components).

The first amp I shared is a 3-channel amp; your post centered around a system that would serve double-duty as HT and stereo and required 3 channels of amplification. Hence, the suggestion. A 200wpc amplifier will be able to drive your LSIs handily.

The second amp is a 7-channel amp (would allow you expand your system down the road, or even run a 2nd zone system, if you were so inclined). It also has a toroidal transformer and good heat-sinking (the aluminum fins you see inside). Rated at 130wpc, it will still easily drive your speakers due to good current storage capabilities.

The rule of thumb concerning loudness is that for every doubling of watt-power your amp will play 3dB louder. This is pretty academic for most people, as we seldom come close to reaching the power output capabilities of an amplifier while listening; especially when considering watt-power used RMS (consistent levels during playback) vs. dynamic power (peaks). Most dedicated amplifiers provide somewhere between 26-29 dB of amplification (more than plenty).

Before you buy anything, maybe go to a local Best Buy Magnolia store and listen to some music through an AVR, then listen some McIntosh amplification to find out if you hear a difference, and whether you thinks it is preferable or not.

Watch the watt-power rating on the McIntosh amp meters and you will see how little watt-power you actually use while listening.

Yet, you will likely hear a significant difference in sound quality going from the AVR to the McIntosh (or Rotel, or whatever other dedicated amp they have on display), then back to the AVR. Just make sure you use the same set of speakers for the listening test.

I can tell you that using a dedicated amp will have a lower noise floor, deeper and more impactful bass, a bigger soundstage, etc., but it won’t mean squat unless you hear it for yourself.

You had said that your budget would top out at $2k-$3k.

A used modern receiver + Outlaw amp (cited above) + Cyberpower UPS (also above) = roughly $1,500

That’s $500 below your max budget range!

Granted if you need a MM phono, you’ll have to look for that feature on the receiver you choose; or get a separate one to use on one of the receiver inputs. Decent entry-level ones can be had for around $100 in the used market.

Thank you for the amazing reply and for the lesson on what to look for in a quality amp. I will reiterate the original 3 options with the pros/cons as I understand them:
1. Higher end AVR voiced for music: good quality sound, only one "box", but very expensive.
2. Cheap AVR with multichannel preamp outputs connected to a power amp to boost signal: most inexpensive option but lowest (relative) sound quality since you're boosting a "low quality" preamp signal from the cheap AVR, two "boxes".
4. Cheap AVR with multichannel preamp outputs connected to an integrated amp: same as #2 but allows volume/power control to be separated from the AVR, also allows future separate DAC connected to the integrated amp to boost audio quality, but now we have 3 "boxes" and we're going up in price again.

Is that about right?

I will go to BestBuy Magnolia to do the comparison you recommended, but my one experience going there in the past was pretty awful. The guy didn't listen to anything I said and just tried to sell me a ~$2k soundbar.

rooftop59

jdeecraigslist wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

jdeecraigslist wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

Here’s a couple amps within your budget, if you decide to get a receiver w/preouts:

(3-channel 200wpc)
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15594

(7-channel 130wpc)
https://outlawaudio.com/shop/power_amplifiers/25-model-7000x.html

Holy cow, that Monolith is a beefy power amp (in size, power, and cost)!
What does 200 wpc do for me vs a lesser value, does it just increase max speaker volume or does it improve clarity, dynamics, sound quality?

Why should I get that $1300 Monolith power amp over say, a Marantz PM8006 integrated amp (2ch but has a nice phono input) for $800 manufacturer refurb? I guess I'm confused where the Monolith fits into a system with a receiver and how I would get the best stereo 2ch audio quality.

Context is important to answering your question.

Up to this point you received 3 options for how to proceed from @rooftop59. @Emlyn explained that receiver power may be insufficient to drive your LSI Polks. I agree with both of them.

Watt power ratings can be misleading. The real issue is stable current delivery to your speakers. Most receivers are so packed with features that they have to be built to a price-point. The most expensive part of an amplifier is the power transformer, which is where most receivers have to skimp to be profitable.

The amplifiers I mentioned to you have toroidal transformers which are excellent at storing current, quietly. The amps shared also have sufficient heat-sinking (it would appear) to keep them cool-running (heat destroys electronic components).

The first amp I shared is a 3-channel amp; your post centered around a system that would serve double-duty as HT and stereo and required 3 channels of amplification. Hence, the suggestion. A 200wpc amplifier will be able to drive your LSIs handily.

The second amp is a 7-channel amp (would allow you expand your system down the road, or even run a 2nd zone system, if you were so inclined). It also has a toroidal transformer and good heat-sinking (the aluminum fins you see inside). Rated at 130wpc, it will still easily drive your speakers due to good current storage capabilities.

The rule of thumb concerning loudness is that for every doubling of watt-power your amp will play 3dB louder. This is pretty academic for most people, as we seldom come close to reaching the power output capabilities of an amplifier while listening; especially when considering watt-power used RMS (consistent levels during playback) vs. dynamic power (peaks). Most dedicated amplifiers provide somewhere between 26-29 dB of amplification (more than plenty).

Before you buy anything, maybe go to a local Best Buy Magnolia store and listen to some music through an AVR, then listen some McIntosh amplification to find out if you hear a difference, and whether you thinks it is preferable or not.

Watch the watt-power rating on the McIntosh amp meters and you will see how little watt-power you actually use while listening.

Yet, you will likely hear a significant difference in sound quality going from the AVR to the McIntosh (or Rotel, or whatever other dedicated amp they have on display), then back to the AVR. Just make sure you use the same set of speakers for the listening test.

I can tell you that using a dedicated amp will have a lower noise floor, deeper and more impactful bass, a bigger soundstage, etc., but it won’t mean squat unless you hear it for yourself.

You had said that your budget would top out at $2k-$3k.

A used modern receiver + Outlaw amp (cited above) + Cyberpower UPS (also above) = roughly $1,500

That’s $500 below your max budget range!

Granted if you need a MM phono, you’ll have to look for that feature on the receiver you choose; or get a separate one to use on one of the receiver inputs. Decent entry-level ones can be had for around $100 in the used market.

Thank you for the amazing reply and for the lesson on what to look for in a quality amp. I will reiterate the original 3 options with the pros/cons as I understand them:
1. Higher end AVR voiced for music: good quality sound, only one "box", but very expensive.
2. Cheap AVR with multichannel preamp outputs connected to a power amp to boost signal: most inexpensive option but lowest (relative) sound quality since you're boosting a "low quality" preamp signal from the cheap AVR, two "boxes".
4. Cheap AVR with multichannel preamp outputs connected to an integrated amp: same as #2 but allows volume/power control to be separated from the AVR, also allows future separate DAC connected to the integrated amp to boost audio quality, but now we have 3 "boxes" and we're going up in price again.

Is that about right?

I will go to BestBuy Magnolia to do the comparison you recommended, but my one experience going there in the past was pretty awful. The guy didn't listen to anything I said and just tried to sell me a ~$2k soundbar.

Yes, that’s pretty much it!

So I am fortunate enough to have two systems (in my sig), one 5.1.2 (soon to be 4) and one two channel (or 2.2 depending on your nomenclature). The 2 channel is much better for music, and really sounds pretty awesome for all tv and movies except really heavy surround sound sci-fi and action movies, which I watch on the HT setup. My point is this: I don’t miss a center channel on the good 2 channel setup. If I were you, I would start with a really good integrated amp and see how I like 2.0 or 2.1 before looking to integrate the center channel…just imho…

jbreezy5

jdeecraigslist wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

jdeecraigslist wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

Here’s a couple amps within your budget, if you decide to get a receiver w/preouts:

(3-channel 200wpc)
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15594

(7-channel 130wpc)
https://outlawaudio.com/shop/power_amplifiers/25-model-7000x.html

Holy cow, that Monolith is a beefy power amp (in size, power, and cost)!
What does 200 wpc do for me vs a lesser value, does it just increase max speaker volume or does it improve clarity, dynamics, sound quality?

Why should I get that $1300 Monolith power amp over say, a Marantz PM8006 integrated amp (2ch but has a nice phono input) for $800 manufacturer refurb? I guess I'm confused where the Monolith fits into a system with a receiver and how I would get the best stereo 2ch audio quality.

Context is important to answering your question.

Up to this point you received 3 options for how to proceed from @rooftop59. @Emlyn explained that receiver power may be insufficient to drive your LSI Polks. I agree with both of them.

Watt power ratings can be misleading. The real issue is stable current delivery to your speakers. Most receivers are so packed with features that they have to be built to a price-point. The most expensive part of an amplifier is the power transformer, which is where most receivers have to skimp to be profitable.

The amplifiers I mentioned to you have toroidal transformers which are excellent at storing current, quietly. The amps shared also have sufficient heat-sinking (it would appear) to keep them cool-running (heat destroys electronic components).

The first amp I shared is a 3-channel amp; your post centered around a system that would serve double-duty as HT and stereo and required 3 channels of amplification. Hence, the suggestion. A 200wpc amplifier will be able to drive your LSIs handily.

The second amp is a 7-channel amp (would allow you expand your system down the road, or even run a 2nd zone system, if you were so inclined). It also has a toroidal transformer and good heat-sinking (the aluminum fins you see inside). Rated at 130wpc, it will still easily drive your speakers due to good current storage capabilities.

The rule of thumb concerning loudness is that for every doubling of watt-power your amp will play 3dB louder. This is pretty academic for most people, as we seldom come close to reaching the power output capabilities of an amplifier while listening; especially when considering watt-power used RMS (consistent levels during playback) vs. dynamic power (peaks). Most dedicated amplifiers provide somewhere between 26-29 dB of amplification (more than plenty).

Before you buy anything, maybe go to a local Best Buy Magnolia store and listen to some music through an AVR, then listen some McIntosh amplification to find out if you hear a difference, and whether you thinks it is preferable or not.

Watch the watt-power rating on the McIntosh amp meters and you will see how little watt-power you actually use while listening.

Yet, you will likely hear a significant difference in sound quality going from the AVR to the McIntosh (or Rotel, or whatever other dedicated amp they have on display), then back to the AVR. Just make sure you use the same set of speakers for the listening test.

I can tell you that using a dedicated amp will have a lower noise floor, deeper and more impactful bass, a bigger soundstage, etc., but it won’t mean squat unless you hear it for yourself.

You had said that your budget would top out at $2k-$3k.

A used modern receiver + Outlaw amp (cited above) + Cyberpower UPS (also above) = roughly $1,500

That’s $500 below your max budget range!

Granted if you need a MM phono, you’ll have to look for that feature on the receiver you choose; or get a separate one to use on one of the receiver inputs. Decent entry-level ones can be had for around $100 in the used market.

Thank you for the amazing reply and for the lesson on what to look for in a quality amp. I will reiterate the original 3 options with the pros/cons as I understand them:
1. Higher end AVR voiced for music: good quality sound, only one "box", but very expensive.
2. Cheap AVR with multichannel preamp outputs connected to a power amp to boost signal: most inexpensive option but lowest (relative) sound quality since you're boosting a "low quality" preamp signal from the cheap AVR, two "boxes".
4. Cheap AVR with multichannel preamp outputs connected to an integrated amp: same as #2 but allows volume/power control to be separated from the AVR, also allows future separate DAC connected to the integrated amp to boost audio quality, but now we have 3 "boxes" and we're going up in price again.

Is that about right?

I will go to BestBuy Magnolia to do the comparison you recommended, but my one experience going there in the past was pretty awful. The guy didn't listen to anything I said and just tried to sell me a ~$2k soundbar.

Regarding your assessment of option number 2, I would say it is NOT necessarily the lowest sound quality option. The best electronic aspect of a modern AVR is the preamp/processor section. It serves as the “brains” or control center of your system.

This is sometimes more desirable than the functionality of an integrated amp as it may include capabilities lacking in an integrated such as:

1) A read-out display; on the receiver itself or your tv screen.

2) AVRs have DACs already built into them; that’s how they turn your digital movies, streaming, and CDs into an analog waveform out to your speakers. If you like the sound, you don’t need another DAC.

3) A single remote to navigate between 2ch and surround

4) Digital room correction to dial in the best sound for your main listening position.

5) Superior volume control compared to most integrateds.

An AVRs volume control is typically a digitally-controlled analog volume control, based on a resistor-ladder integrated circuit.

This means that the volume control still occurs in the analogue domain as most integrated amplifier volume pots do; however resistor-ladder volume controls are superior to standard carbon-wiper based pots found in most integrateds, because they result in more accurate channel volume level matching and better channel separation.

6) Your receiver may already have built-in streaming capabilities, but if not, you can use an affordable ROKU, Firestick, Chromecast, etc. through your tv to do a lot.

Some people might subjectively still favor the sound of a traditional volume pot. This is why listening trumps theory.

We are discussing ideas. Why not try all of them and find out what suits you? You might prefer using HT pass-through with an integrated. Or you might like to simply add an amp. Or you might say “Screw it, I need a one box solution, I’ll stretch my budget a bit.”

The best way to know is by experiencing them.

As far as those Best Buy guys, approach them like they need your money. Give them a directive, like, “I want to hear these speakers on that AVR, then I want to hear them on that amp.” I think someone will arrange that for you.

Good luck with your search.

jdeecraigslist

rooftop59 wrote: »

Yes, that’s pretty much it!

So I am fortunate enough to have two systems (in my sig), one 5.1.2 (soon to be 4) and one two channel (or 2.2 depending on your nomenclature). The 2 channel is much better for music, and really sounds pretty awesome for all tv and movies except really heavy surround sound sci-fi and action movies, which I watch on the HT setup. My point is this: I don’t miss a center channel on the good 2 channel setup. If I were you, I would start with a really good integrated amp and see how I like 2.0 or 2.1 before looking to integrate the center channel…just imho…

jbreezy5 wrote: »

Regarding your assessment of option number 2, I would say it is NOT necessarily the lowest sound quality option. The best electronic aspect of a modern AVR is the preamp/processor section. It serves as the “brains” or control center of your system.

This is sometimes more desirable than the functionality of an integrated amp as it may include capabilities lacking in an integrated such as:

1) A read-out display; on the receiver itself or your tv screen.

2) AVRs have DACs already built into them; that’s how they turn your digital movies, streaming, and CDs into an analog waveform out to your speakers. If you like the sound, you don’t need another DAC.

3) A single remote to navigate between 2ch and surround

4) Digital room correction to dial in the best sound for your main listening position.

5) Superior volume control compared to most integrateds.

An AVRs volume control is typically a digitally-controlled analog volume control, based on a resistor-ladder integrated circuit.

This means that the volume control still occurs in the analogue domain as most integrated amplifier volume pots do; however resistor-ladder volume controls are superior to standard carbon-wiper based pots found in most integrateds, because they result in more accurate channel volume level matching and better channel separation.

6) Your receiver may already have built-in streaming capabilities, but if not, you can use an affordable ROKU, Firestick, Chromecast, etc. through your tv to do a lot.

Some people might subjectively still favor the sound of a traditional volume pot. This is why listening trumps theory.

We are discussing ideas. Why not try all of them and find out what suits you? You might prefer using HT pass-through with an integrated. Or you might like to simply add an amp. Or you might say “Screw it, I need a one box solution, I’ll stretch my budget a bit.”

The best way to know is by experiencing them.

As far as those Best Buy guys, approach them like they need your money. Give them a directive, like, “I want to hear these speakers on that AVR, then I want to hear them on that amp.” I think someone will arrange that for you.

Good luck with your search.

I feel like I just absorbed Chapters 1-3 of a multi-volume encyclopedia. So much info here, thank you!

If I'm just using the AVR as a DAC and pre-amp, is there such thing as an affordable AV Pre-Amp with HDMI inputs? I started looking and see that Marantz has the AV-7706 for $3k (!). If a more budget-friendly version of that exists, and I can just connect it to a 3-channel power amp, that seems to me like a great solution? That way, as HDMI/TV technology changes I can just replace the processor/pre-amp only to keep connectivity, and keep using the power amp.

jbreezy5

Yes, you will want an AVR with HDMI ins/outs, preamp outs, and that processes DTS-HD/Dolby Digital-HD for movies. You will need to decide your other feature-set priorities like bluetooth, ATMOS, USB, etc. before you buy.

The “budget-friendly version” is found purchasing used. For example, I have purchased two AVRs to use as pre/pros at roughly $300/ea, and I got the original packaging, remotes, and accessories!

There are plenty of good used options around this price-point.

Familiarize yourself with a few of the major brands: Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Integra, Anthem, Rotel. Test what you can at local stores to get a feel for the remote/user-interface (UI) and general sound characteristics.

After you get the AVR you want, try out different amplifiers to make sure you like the aesthetic and sound with your pre/pro and speakers.

jdeecraigslist

jbreezy5 wrote: »

Yes, you will want an AVR with HDMI ins/outs, preamp outs, and that processes DTS-HD/Dolby Digital-HD for movies. You will need to decide your other feature-set priorities like bluetooth, ATMOS, USB, etc. before you buy.

The “budget-friendly version” is found purchasing used. For example, I have purchased two AVRs to use as pre/pros at roughly $300/ea, and I got the original packaging, remotes, and accessories!

There are plenty of good used options around this price-point.

Familiarize yourself with a few of the major brands: Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Integra, Anthem, Rotel. Test what you can at local stores to get a feel for the remote/user-interface (UI) and general sound characteristics.

After you get the AVR you want, try out different amplifiers to make sure you like the aesthetic and sound with your pre/pro and speakers.

Hi, could you suggest a roughly $300 AVR model like you mentioned? I'm not finding anything with multichannel pre-outs anywhere even close to that price. Nothing for sale locally and ebay selling for nearly new prices.

BestBuy Magnolia was a bust. They had almost nothing in stock to demo "due to supply issues", so I got to hear a Marantz vs Denon AVR demo on some pretty mediocre speakers, and that was that. The guy apologized and said they haven't received new stock in ages.

The cheapest new/factory refurb AVR I see is a Marantz SR5015 for $799. Not bad but not $300!

Would a NAD T 758 V3i be measurably better (enough power and improved "musicality") vs a typical AVR to skip the amplifier, or am I just falling for the "music first" marketing?

rooftop59

jdeecraigslist wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

Yes, you will want an AVR with HDMI ins/outs, preamp outs, and that processes DTS-HD/Dolby Digital-HD for movies. You will need to decide your other feature-set priorities like bluetooth, ATMOS, USB, etc. before you buy.

The “budget-friendly version” is found purchasing used. For example, I have purchased two AVRs to use as pre/pros at roughly $300/ea, and I got the original packaging, remotes, and accessories!

There are plenty of good used options around this price-point.

Familiarize yourself with a few of the major brands: Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Integra, Anthem, Rotel. Test what you can at local stores to get a feel for the remote/user-interface (UI) and general sound characteristics.

After you get the AVR you want, try out different amplifiers to make sure you like the aesthetic and sound with your pre/pro and speakers.

Hi, could you suggest a roughly $300 AVR model like you mentioned? I'm not finding anything with multichannel pre-outs anywhere even close to that price. Nothing for sale locally and ebay selling for nearly new prices.

BestBuy Magnolia was a bust. They had almost nothing in stock to demo "due to supply issues", so I got to hear a Marantz vs Denon AVR demo on some pretty mediocre speakers, and that was that. The guy apologized and said they haven't received new stock in ages.

The cheapest new/factory refurb AVR I see is a Marantz SR5015 for $799. Not bad but not $300!

Would a NAD T 758 V3i be measurably better (enough power and improved "musicality") vs a typical AVR to skip the amplifier, or am I just falling for the "music first" marketing?

The nad might well be worth it, butI have never heard a NAD avr.

That Marantz is a good deal considering current conditions. You will get better internal DACs as you move up the chain. Pair that Marantz with my Cambridge and you will have a banging system!

Shameless plug: https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/196324/cambridge-integrated-amp-with-ht-bypass#latest

Honestly I would try a good integrated by itself first. I’m telling you, you might just sell the center channel!

jbreezy5

jdeecraigslist wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

Yes, you will want an AVR with HDMI ins/outs, preamp outs, and that processes DTS-HD/Dolby Digital-HD for movies. You will need to decide your other feature-set priorities like bluetooth, ATMOS, USB, etc. before you buy.

The “budget-friendly version” is found purchasing used. For example, I have purchased two AVRs to use as pre/pros at roughly $300/ea, and I got the original packaging, remotes, and accessories!

There are plenty of good used options around this price-point.

Familiarize yourself with a few of the major brands: Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Integra, Anthem, Rotel. Test what you can at local stores to get a feel for the remote/user-interface (UI) and general sound characteristics.

After you get the AVR you want, try out different amplifiers to make sure you like the aesthetic and sound with your pre/pro and speakers.

Hi, could you suggest a roughly $300 AVR model like you mentioned? I'm not finding anything with multichannel pre-outs anywhere even close to that price. Nothing for sale locally and ebay selling for nearly new prices.

BestBuy Magnolia was a bust. They had almost nothing in stock to demo "due to supply issues", so I got to hear a Marantz vs Denon AVR demo on some pretty mediocre speakers, and that was that. The guy apologized and said they haven't received new stock in ages.

The cheapest new/factory refurb AVR I see is a Marantz SR5015 for $799. Not bad but not $300!

Would a NAD T 758 V3i be measurably better (enough power and improved "musicality") vs a typical AVR to skip the amplifier, or am I just falling for the "music first" marketing?

I don’t have experience with the NAD T758.

The AVRs I purchased were the Yamaha RX-V775 and RX-V777, I believe. I got both off of ebay used; just checked and I paid $300 total for one, and $240 total for the other. I purchased both in August 2021.

The world is in a different state than when I purchased my AVRs, you may be feeling that. Patience and research may be key to finding a good deal.

I do not care for the sound of their internal amplifiers, which I would describe as a little dry, grainy, and analytical sounding.

However, if supplemented with a separate amplifier, they sound much better. IMO, the UI is intuitive on both of them.

As far as Marantz, look for earlier versions used that have the features you want; it doesn’t have to be the current model. Same with any AVR.

Also, I saw that Outlaw Audio has a 5000x amp at 130wpc, but with only 5-channels for $769, I think. That would reduce the overall $$$ outlay on the amp compared to the 7000x I previously mentioned.

Good luck with your search. That is part of the fun!

jdeecraigslist

I was able to find another BestBuy today with one of their "flagship" Magnolia centers. My goal was to compare a low end AVR and high end AVR with the same speakers, followed by a comparison with a dedicated 2.1 receiver. Unfortunately they have the equipment set up in a very convoluted way (probably so they can upsell you!). They can only play the AVR's on the cheap speakers and the separates on the expensive speakers. The salesman was very nice and I was there for over an hour, but the only direct comparison I was able to do was a Marantz SR7015 vs an Arcam AV10. The Arcam sounded better but the volume was higher so I don't know why that was. The salesman told me the Arcam had a class A/B amplifier but the Marantz had a class D (which is false), so I basically disregarded everything else he said after that.

I learned a few things:
1. The Polk 703's I have at home are way better than the $1600 B&W set they demo'd.
2. The Marantz SR7015 sounds great to me on expensive ($2500) speakers
3. The Arcam SA30 integrated amplifier with the massive 760 watt 2.0 channel amplifier they had sounded amazing on very expensive ($4000) tower speakers. However too rich for me.
4. The $25k McIntosh tube receiver + amplifier setup was the most stunning thing I have ever heard, and is now my holy grail combination. Oh, and add on the $5000 speakers. Wish I hadn't listened to that combo.

I'm going to go ahead with the $800 SR5015 AVR, try them with the 703's, and we'll see where that takes me.

Thanks for all the help, I'll report back.

rooftop59

jdeecraigslist wrote: »

I was able to find another BestBuy today with one of their "flagship" Magnolia centers. My goal was to compare a low end AVR and high end AVR with the same speakers, followed by a comparison with a dedicated 2.1 receiver. Unfortunately they have the equipment set up in a very convoluted way (probably so they can upsell you!). They can only play the AVR's on the cheap speakers and the separates on the expensive speakers. The salesman was very nice and I was there for over an hour, but the only direct comparison I was able to do was a Marantz SR7015 vs an Arcam AV10. The Arcam sounded better but the volume was higher so I don't know why that was. The salesman told me the Arcam had a class A/B amplifier but the Marantz had a class D (which is false), so I basically disregarded everything else he said after that.

I learned a few things:
1. The Polk 703's I have at home are way better than the $1600 B&W set they demo'd.
2. The Marantz SR7015 sounds great to me on expensive ($2500) speakers
3. The Arcam SA30 integrated amplifier with the massive 760 watt 2.0 channel amplifier they had sounded amazing on very expensive ($4000) tower speakers. However too rich for me.
4. The $25k McIntosh tube receiver + amplifier setup was the most stunning thing I have ever heard, and is now my holy grail combination. Oh, and add on the $5000 speakers. Wish I hadn't listened to that combo.

I'm going to go ahead with the $800 SR5015 AVR, try them with the 703's, and we'll see where that takes me.

Thanks for all the help, I'll report back.

Remember that the 7015 will have better DACs and perhaps more importantly, better calibration. I don’t think the 5015 will calibrate your sub, while the 7015 will. It makes a big difference…

Oh yes, and I have the arcam sr250 and can confirm that it sounds far better than any other avr I’ve ever have for music…

Emlyn

Correct on Marantz receivers not using Class D amps (yet). Marantz switched over to Class D amps in some of their two channel gear a few years ago. The Model 30 Integrated amp is one example (100 watts into 8 ohms, 200 watts into 4 ohms) with Hypex amp modules. The Best Buy person may have been thinking about that product.

jbreezy5

jdeecraigslist wrote: »

I was able to find another BestBuy today with one of their "flagship" Magnolia centers. My goal was to compare a low end AVR and high end AVR with the same speakers, followed by a comparison with a dedicated 2.1 receiver. Unfortunately they have the equipment set up in a very convoluted way (probably so they can upsell you!). They can only play the AVR's on the cheap speakers and the separates on the expensive speakers. The salesman was very nice and I was there for over an hour, but the only direct comparison I was able to do was a Marantz SR7015 vs an Arcam AV10. The Arcam sounded better but the volume was higher so I don't know why that was. The salesman told me the Arcam had a class A/B amplifier but the Marantz had a class D (which is false), so I basically disregarded everything else he said after that.

I learned a few things:
1. The Polk 703's I have at home are way better than the $1600 B&W set they demo'd.
2. The Marantz SR7015 sounds great to me on expensive ($2500) speakers
3. The Arcam SA30 integrated amplifier with the massive 760 watt 2.0 channel amplifier they had sounded amazing on very expensive ($4000) tower speakers. However too rich for me.
4. The $25k McIntosh tube receiver + amplifier setup was the most stunning thing I have ever heard, and is now my holy grail combination. Oh, and add on the $5000 speakers. Wish I hadn't listened to that combo.

I'm going to go ahead with the $800 SR5015 AVR, try them with the 703's, and we'll see where that takes me.

Thanks for all the help, I'll report back.

That’s great! Congrats on the Marantz decision!

It’s a good move since you heard it first-hand with comparisons… and you still have the flexibility to go in any direction.

👍

jdeecraigslist

Update: The Marantz SR5015 sounds great in my living room! TV/movie audio is vastly improved, and I realized the center channel is a necessity in my room. I am happy with the AVR and its modern downmixing/DAC/streaming capabilities. Its internal power is plenty for movies and TV on my LSiM 703's. I never realized how great these speakers were.

The internal phono stage is quite bad, I am disappointed in it. My external phono amp is vastly superior.

Stereo audio is "pretty good". However, my friend brought over his inexpensive tube amp and I can hear a clear and very significant improvement in stereo audio (even my wife noticed, and that's impressive). After hearing the difference I can't just settle with the AVR for music listening.

Now to decide, do I want to go down the path of an external integrated amp (maybe a tube amp) with an A/B speaker switch, or just add a nice 3 channel power amp to the AVR. I'm just not sure if adding a power amp will just amplify the sub-par sound of the AVR or if the pre-outs are just significantly better so it will be improved.

jbreezy5

Was your friend’s tube amp connected to your receiver’s preouts?

If so, you described above that the sound was noticeably improved.

It’s not about the quality of the preouts. It’s about the quality of the power supplied by the external amp.

PSOVLSK

I have a Marantz AVR with a lower level 5 channel Parasound amp and I’m happy with it. If you actually get a nice 2 channel amp, I think you’ll be pleased with the results. If your friends tube amp was inexpensive and you liked it, well, there you go.

Milito

When I added a amp to my Yamaha RX-A2070 I heard a nice improvement in the sound. Since then I have had 2 integrated amps connected to it. Big improvement with the last one, a Musical Fidelity 6si.