Home theater sounds better without center channel. Am I crazy?

polkevin

I've been using a single onkyo receiver to power my L/R A9's, csi5 center, FXi3 surrounds along with dual Velodyne CT-10's for subs for past 6 years. In the last year I've finally had time and budget to upgrade some things so I added Polk Reserve Atmos speakers for front heights and have blanketed my room with sound panels. I could not believe the difference when the sound panels were added! For the first time my theater wasn't just "loud" it was "theater-ish" sounding, if that makes sense. fSo much so I began to wonder what next?

Power. I needed more power for those A9's. The bass was simply lacking and was noticeable when listening to music in a stereo 2.0 format. So for first time ever I added an amp. Because I only have room for a 5.1.2 setup, I didn't need a fancy new overpriced AVR. I found a great OnkyoRZ off eBay (at an even better price), added a new Emotiva XPA-3, and BOOM just like that my world was turned upside down!!!

I could not believe how good these A9's sounded. How much richer and fuller the sound was. How I could hear the environment of the movie scenes so much better. Worth every penny.

But something about the center keeps bugging me. While many people here seem to enjoy their csi4/csA6, but I find it centers things too much. While the vocals/dialogue are much more defined and easier to hear, it feels like too much info is going to the center and pulling from the L/R A9's.

For kicks and giggles I decided to see how good the A9's are. So I tested a 4.0.2 configuration. No center, no dual subs. WOW! How could this sound better? With the A9's carrying the full front load the front sound stage became one. For the first time in 25 years of my home theater hobby experience I was in the movie theater. The front soundstage sounded just like how the movies sound. A perfect blend of center dialogue and background/environment sounds. The vocals have warmth and depth and without the subs, there's no extra bass during scenes where bass isn't needed. When a scene is outside you hear it all. The wind, the cars driving down the street, the people walking, and the main characters vocals. For indoor scenes you can here the AC when it comes on, the people in the hallway outside the office of where the characters are talking. The main character moving things around or placing items on a desk. It all sounds just like the movies. Without the subs, the action sounds and explosions are higher and more controlled.

I don't think I can go back to a center channel and dual subs. My question is, do you think I had something setup wrong? Was my center or subs too loud? Maybe sub crossover should be lower to let the A9's take more of the lower frequencies and leave the subs for the bottom floor shaking frequencies. Maybe even getting an A9 for the center for a seamless L/C/R soundstage?

Either way I think I'm going to just enjoy this 4.0.2 set for now, take some time and see if friends and family notice a difference when they come over to watch a movie.

SeleniumFalcon

"Was my center or subs too loud?"

From your description, I would say, "probably".

WLDock

If you ever get the change to listen to a well setup 5.1, 7.1, 5.1.2, 7.1.2, etc. you will see what the different is.

When you have a well blended front the dialog sounds like its coming from the screen with proper and even panning from LCR. A well setup LCR front should sound like a good movie theater. In comparison, a LR front with phantom center will have a less balanced LCR as the sound pans across the screen. Depending on the film, tv show, etc., dialog can be harder to hear with a phantom center compared to a well integrated true center channel.

An LCR with three towers is one way to improve the front.




As far as bass.... the subbass should be present but not overbearing and bloated. There should be a kick where a kick is intended and again the sound should seems as if it originates from the screen.

polkevin

Think I may of solved the issue! I was playing around with the center channel crossover and increased it to 120hz and now I'm getting the center "movie theater sound" I was getting when using the phantom center.

pitdogg2

That is a nice room set up Walt

polkevin

Here's my setup - front, back left/right. I don't have a lot of light in the room so the pictures look a little dull but it's actually pretty cool room in person and allows for a great viewing experience any time of day. Everyone always wants to know what color the walls/ceiling is, believe it or not it's called "Gray" from Benjamin Moore.

Added a couple sound panels to the sides of the front speakers at beginning of last year then every couple months added some behind them, then moved to the back of the room. May of went a bit overboard with the panels but it mad a huge difference in sound quality.



The posters in the back of the room are sound panels that I wrapped with custom printed fabric. I like them a lot better than the posters because you don't get the glare of the poster frames and these printed fabric versions have more detail and depth than the poster versions. Of course you need a good image file to begin with when you upload your image for printing.

Emlyn

It would be so much better/smarter if this forum still had a gallery where members could post photos of their Polk systems and AV gear. Those two systems above look like excellent places to spend time in!

Emlyn

The original Emotiva XPA-3 and other amps were deliberately designed with a high voltage gain to blow the socks off of buyers who were only using AV receivers before. It's kind of like cheating in a way because the original Emotiva amps sounded far more powerful with the same channel level settings in the receiver. Is the center speaker running from the XPA-3 too? Speaker sensitivity also plays a role in how each speaker sounds.

As SeleniumFalcon notes above, tinker with your speaker levels. You should be able to get all of the speakers working together seamlessly in that space. If you can't get the integration where you want it to be though and you like the way the system sounds without a center speaker there's nothing with doing things the way you prefer. Rock on!

WLDock

pitdogg2 wrote: »

That is a nice room set up Walt

That room belonged to a gent name Steve Callas I met on AVS forum. He lives about an hour and a half from me and I had a chance to experience his current dedicated theater. He's come a long way in his HT journey and years ago posted up pictures of the progression: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/steves-first-dedicated-theater.2783777/post-51513425



The current dedicated theater is an absolute beast!... and knocked me silly during a Ready Player One demo. Sound effects were coming from everywhere! All done with a mix of DIY and contract work on a $26K budget. He has a very beautiful home but the theater in the basement he had the whole place rocking! His live-in girlfriend had to tell him to turn it down, LOL!

• The theater is ~27.5' x 15.5' x 9'. Contains 15 speaker surround sound with six 18" subwoofers in a 11.3.4 format, as well as tactile platforms underneath each recliner with a 15" driver BOSS on each front seat and 12" driver on each back seat.
• The 15 speakers are mains, center, wides, surrounds, rear surrounds, front heights, front in ceiling, rear in ceiling.
• Whether a movie is Atmos or not, everything is upmixed to utilize all 15 channels.

Feature in a Home Theater of the Month article: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/home-theater-of-the-month-steve’s-first-dedicated-theater.3121534/









I just talked to him the other day about checking out some speakers he's acquired. Maybe we'll have some time to watch a full move.

jbreezy5

@WLDock

Matching floor standing center channel…Your friend speaking my language.

gp4jesus

@polkevin: Forgive the “splitting of hairs,” but what are the preferred LR, surrounds, etc intended to work w/ the CSi5. ?
It’s not part of the RTi A series. Further, what powers it?

I have the same amp powering all mids & tweeters in my system. I’m convinced that’s one of the keys to my system’s fluidity and transparency

rooftop59

polkevin wrote: »

Think I may of solved the issue! I was playing around with the center channel crossover and increased it to 120hz and now I'm getting the center "movie theater sound" I was getting when using the phantom center.

Now that you have the A9s getting good power and better bass output, I would look into one killer sub to replace those two. They really don’t go much lower than the 9s. I would suggest looking at

HSU: https://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15hmk2.html

or monoprice: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24458&gclid=CjwKCAjwoduRBhA4EiwACL5RP_2yLIRW7HrvVzYJ_hEd6KCFsvpF5kmRk2SQ7ypadrscA6i6OlmmoxoCs0oQAvD_BwE

for the best bang for your buck. I purchased the monoprice 15 sub about 6 months ago, and I’ve owed over 30 subs over the years including entry and mid level HSU and SVS and this is by far the baddest sub I have ever owned. Really took my HT to the next level…