SDA-1c compared to Monitor 12 Series 2: Any experiences?

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plastic_avatar
plastic_avatar Posts: 687
in Vintage Speakers
Hey gang!

You know, a little over a year ago I finished my big project. I upgraded the crossovers, did some blasphemic dynamatting of the passive cabinet area (speaker baskets are next), and replaced the tweeters with 198s on my Monitor 12. And the results are awesome.

My next project is a pair of SDA-1c Studio. That is, if the deal doesn't fall through for some reason... I'm waiting for the owner to say 'The ice is thawed and I don't feel worried you'll break a leg moving them out of the house, so come up and get 'em!'.

So, I'm REALLY curious about what I can expect from the same updates to the 1c.

The Monitors lack a little something in the upper midrange. I can't quite place it, but there is a boundary where the tweeters start that lacks some... mid sparkle, presence, timbre... hard for me to explain. I don't notice it unless I play something like my old Boston T830s, and those pick up whatever that subdued patch of frequencies are with it's dedicated mid. And it could be that I'm hearing what I should, but it sounds veiled to my ear. So I wonder if the 1c will be similar.

The 198 tweeter is a fantastic upgrade, and I'm curious how the 194 (in its paired configuration) will compare.

I'm also curious about the force of the 1c compared to the Monitor. I don't quite understand the difference between the 2 versions of the midwoofer used in the 1c, nor how their interplay affects things like bass impact. The Monitors are breathtaking given the right material (Welcome to the Machine on album is just incredible...).

The stereo image (from the sweet spot) with the Monitors is about 4 inches past the outside edge of the speakers, about 5 inches above the cabinets, and fills the entire 6 feet between the inside edges at about 1 foot deep front to back. I have them toed in. And the imaging is fantastic. It's the first pair of speakers I've had with that detailed a stereo experience, and I'm so very, very pleased with them. I am a thrifty stereo guy, so I do what I can on a limited budget =)

I know, from everything I've consumed here, that the 1c should provide me a better stereo experience, but I am curious, considering the similarities between the driver compliment, if they will surpass the presence/force of the Monitors. If that makes sense?

Any thoughts and anecdotes would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, all!
The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
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    I know the monitor 10's don't come close to the SDA 2's I imagine the 12's and the 1C's are equally apart in performance.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 687
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    audioluvr wrote: »
    I know the monitor 10's don't come close to the SDA 2's I imagine the 12's and the 1C's are equally apart in performance.

    You have yours modded and with a Dreadnaught mod!

    Which mods, what gains from each, and what differences between the 10 and 1c did you notice?

    I know, that's a lot of questions ;)

    I started a separate list of all the mods I could find in the threads (from tracking down the amazing pdf from V3R's defunct site, to individual comments, to the Dreadnaught posts). I figure my upgrades will start with crossovers... and tweeters... and dynamatting baskets... and JB Welding magnets... and Mortite'ing seals...

    The next level mods I have on the list, which are what I don't have budgeted, are a replacement cable and the Dreadnaught. Although, I'm still confused as to whether the Dread mod works the same noise/detail magic on common ground amps. It was an extension of the design for non-common ground amps, right?

    Here's a question:

    What about stands?

    My Monitors are raised up on stands that are about a foot tall.
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 687
    edited February 2022
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    Frequency response for the Monitors is listed as 20hz-25khz.

    The 1c are listed as 15hz-26khz.

    So there's that difference with similar driver compliments, too.
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,556
    edited February 2022
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    Mortite'ing seals..
    DO NOT USE MORTITE or any other rope caulk.
    Use gasket tape from parts express or armacell tape cut to width.
    It's a pipe wrap that works very good. It can be found at most home stores.
    Home depot, Menards etc.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    DO NOT USE MORTITE or any other rope caulk.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 687
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    Whyfor no Mortite?

    I rolled it, mashed it to a suitable width and height, and it appears to have sealed nicely. Does it offgas, get brittle, something?

    I'll check out the pipe wrap.

    I haven't been a fan of foam-layered tape for things because I had a bad experience with rot once on an unrelated project...
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,556
    edited February 2022
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    Rope caulk can and will pull wood from the from baffle if left on long enough. The only reason Polk used in the beginning was cost. There are better gasket materials without the headaches that mortite can be.
    We are just trying to help prevent a migraine :smile: if and when you'll need to pull any drivers.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Armacell-2-in-x-30-ft-R-1-Foam-Insulation-Tape-TAP18230/100539553

    https://www.parts-express.com/Speaker-Gasketing-Tape-1-8-x-1-2-x-50-ft.-Roll-260-542

    When using either it is best to over lap a little and cut at a diagonal to keep from a possibility of an air leak at the butted straight cut.
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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 687
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Rope caulk can and will pull wood from the from baffle if left on long enough. The only reason Polk used in the beginning was cost. There are better gasket materials without the headaches that mortite can be.
    We are just trying to help prevent a migraine :smile: if and when you'll need to pull any drivers.

    OHHHHHHHHH!

    That's a legit worry. I want to dynamat the baskets on the Monitors now, and I was wondering just how damn sticky that stuff was going to be to pry open...

    Thank you! Will adjust for this next project =)
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,556
    edited February 2022
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    For the record, I like the Armacell. It easily compresses down the driver and when you pull the driver it looks just like the factory gaskets. The PE gasket tape you need to go little by little over a few days as it does not compress as easily.
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,182
    edited February 2022
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    @xschop has been using 1/16" thick EVA foam from Hobby Lobby IIRC and likes it. I would think he is using adhesive backed and cutting the gaskets out in a complete ring with his PVC cutting template?
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Crown D150 amp
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    In addition to other issues Moritite acts as a cushion between the basket and bezel. That is exactly what you don't want. Use real speaker gasket material that will compress down to paper thin.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 687
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    Neato =)

    Change logged!

    Now... about audioluvr's Dreadnaught...
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 687
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    WOOHOO!

    Picked the SDAs up today!

    Plus, snagged a couple of Frank's Chicken and Pizza's Buffalo Chicken Pizzas. They're AMAZING. If you're in Pittsburgh, and you like pizza, *and* you like Buffalo chicken things, it's AMAZING. We live 90 minutes South, so a day in PA for speakers was a day to buy pizza!

    Anyhow. For my next thread, it's going to be the 1c upgrade journey. Stay tuned! I'm going to need advice, I'm sure of it!
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
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    plastic_avatar wrote: »
    Now... about audioluvr's Dreadnaught...

    Huh? What?
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 687
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    audioluvr wrote: »
    plastic_avatar wrote: »
    Now... about audioluvr's Dreadnaught...

    Huh? What?

    [laughs]

    I don't know anyone else who has the mod that I could ask about =)

    Things like:

    - Does anyone use this mod without a non-common ground amp setup?

    - Did you build it yourself?

    - I'd have to build one, for cost, if I could use it with my common ground stuff, so... would it be worth it? How much do you like it?
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
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    You can use the dreadnaught with any amp. It's part of the journey. You will ideally need to modify your terminal plate on the back of your speakers. It's usually done when the speakers are apart for mods.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 687
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    audioluvr wrote: »
    It's part of the journey.

    Alrighty. I'll put it on the 'After everything else is done, if I can justify the money, I'll build the damn thing!' list =)

    I'm just getting over the shock of not being able to order the 194's from Polk, and not seeing them for sale anywhere (see other thread where I groan about it...). So that extra money saved from the Club Polk and shipping discounts puts a small dent in my budget.


    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
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    I've never ordered from Midwest Speaker but I believe the RDO-194's they sell are the same as the ones from Polk. They are also quite easy to add later when they are not on backorder. I'd still get your order in though.

    https://www.midwestspeakerrepair.com/shop/home-audio/tweeters/polk-audio-1-tweeters/polk-audio-sl2000-1-inch-dome-tweeter/
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Hansvelton
    Hansvelton Posts: 151
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    plastic_avatar wrote: »
    Frequency response for the Monitors is listed as 20hz-25khz.

    The 1c are listed as 15hz-26khz.

    So there's that difference with similar driver compliments, too.


    I would not put tons of faith in those numbers. Those are somewhat optimistic, and are NOT the -3db figures usually used by Polk, but the "Overall" response numbers that do not give what variation.

    I would expect both models to be closer to "around" 30Hz at the -3db point.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,079
    edited February 2022
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    Here's the Stereo Review - Julian Hirsch review of the SDA 1C. It gives you measured specs. Also note they measure a 5dB tweeter resonance at 13kHz, which is the nasty spike most dislike about the SL2000 tweeter.

    The Monitor and SDA line are different animals with different end goals. Drivers are similar/same but implemented differently for a really different final result.

    https://polksda.com/sda1creview.shtml

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,079
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    Hansvelton wrote: »
    plastic_avatar wrote: »
    Frequency response for the Monitors is listed as 20hz-25khz.

    The 1c are listed as 15hz-26khz.

    So there's that difference with similar driver compliments, too.


    I would not put tons of faith in those numbers. Those are somewhat optimistic, and are NOT the -3db figures usually used by Polk, but the "Overall" response numbers that do not give what variation.

    I would expect both models to be closer to "around" 30Hz at the -3db point.

    20Hz - 18kHz (+/- 5dB) is what a 1987 Stereo Review Lab measured. Also the lowest bass distortion they had ever measured @ 25Hz at 90dB -SPL reference.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Hansvelton
    Hansvelton Posts: 151
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    heiney9 wrote: »
    Hansvelton wrote: »
    plastic_avatar wrote: »
    Frequency response for the Monitors is listed as 20hz-25khz.

    The 1c are listed as 15hz-26khz.

    So there's that difference with similar driver compliments, too.


    I would not put tons of faith in those numbers. Those are somewhat optimistic, and are NOT the -3db figures usually used by Polk, but the "Overall" response numbers that do not give what variation.

    I would expect both models to be closer to "around" 30Hz at the -3db point.

    20Hz - 18kHz (+/- 5dB) is what a 1987 Stereo Review Lab measured. Also the lowest bass distortion they had ever measured @ 25Hz at 90dB -SPL reference.

    H9

    Thanks.....!
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,182
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    Article on Frequency Response by Paul DiComo (RIP) Marketing Manager Polk Audio

    When Polk gave an overall response with no +/- dB it was -9dB

    https://www.ecoustics.com/articles/understanding-speaker-frequency-response/

    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Crown D150 amp
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Hansvelton
    Hansvelton Posts: 151
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    Gardenstater wrote: »
    Article on Frequency Response by Paul DiComo (RIP) Marketing Manager Polk Audio

    When Polk gave an overall response with no +/- dB it was -9dB

    https://www.ecoustics.com/articles/understanding-speaker-frequency-response/

    I had always assumed it was 10db, but not splitting hairs over one decibel!

    Great read, did not know Paul had passed away. I remember Discussing stuff with him probably over 2 decades ago. A very nice and insightful guy in many ways.
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