Buying expensive gear person to person

heiney9
heiney9 Posts: 25,194
in The Clubhouse
I am getting ready to start revamping my main rig. I am fixated on a piece of gear that will simplify everything. Probably going to get away from tubes. I did that for the better part of 15 years and enjoyed it immensely. The thrill of the hunt was just as rewarding as rolling all these tubes I've acquired over the past 15 years. The self-education was also a high point.

I just don't have the time, patience or for that matter the personality type to keep rolling tubes. I want a set it and forget it type of listening experience these days. My obsessive personality type keeps wanting to find that next perfect (different) sound every time I have a listening session by rolling different tubes.

I am looking to replace my Eastern Electric Avant pre-amp which uses (8) tubes. That's a whole lot of possible combinations. Also replacing my Pass Labs Aleph 30 amp. I am going the integrated route and looking at a Pass Labs INT-25

5b9wkd5g9c61.png


https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-int-25-integrated-amplifier

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/pass-labs-int-25-integrated-amplifier/

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/integrated-amplifiers/pass-labs-int-25-integrated-amplifier-review/

https://www.hifinews.com/content/pass-labs-int-25-integrated-amplifier

https://www.ecoustics.com/reviews/pass-labs-int-25-integrated-amplifier/

In the past month I've seen 3 come up for sale all slightly used. MSRP is $7600 and I just don't want to take the depreciation hit and that's a lot of bones to part with even though funds are there. Used prices seem to hover $5200-5600, plus shipping and Paypal fees.

I just don't feel comfortable sending a perfect stranger almost $6K. If I got scammed, I'd lose my ****. So, what does everyone do short of trying to find someone local to meet up with for a sale? Which would be next to impossible for a piece like this as it's not that common. These are fairly new in production so not a lot of used ones out there. The 3-4 I've been looking at are gone in less than 12 hours.

Am I covered as a buyer for this kind of money if it goes south? $2K savings on average over new is significant. If the savings was less, I'd opt for a dealer for the piece of mind and less hassle.

Please discuss if you have some experience buying higher priced gear from US Audio Mart or Audiogon. I won't spend that kind of money on EBAY.

H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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Comments

  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,446
    That is what the Polk Network is for. If you find one anywhere within two hours of my home, I will go and inspect it for you, facilitate payment through Paypal and make sure it is properly packaged for shipment to you. I am certain there are others on the forum that would help out as well...

    As you know, we love to spend other people's money for them! :p
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,601
    I've bought from a guy that had an item on AGon but he also had it listed on eBay. I opted to pay the extra 3% for eBay because of the security of PayPal and his impeccable seller rating. Not sure that helps your situation. Maybe contact PL to see if they ever get trade-ins but I don't think they do.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,560
    Good luck in your search Brock.
    Maybe reach out to Mr. Skipworth at audio thesis. I know he's had to use those two off and on, he may be able to shed some light
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I am getting ready to start revamping my main rig. I am fixated on a piece of gear that will simplify everything. Probably going to get away from tubes. I did that for the better part of 15 years and enjoyed it immensely. The thrill of the hunt was just as rewarding as rolling all these tubes I've acquired over the past 15 years. The self-education was also a high point.

    I just don't have the time, patience or for that matter the personality type to keep rolling tubes. I want a set it and forget it type of listening experience these days. My obsessive personality type keeps wanting to find that next perfect (different) sound every time I have a listening session by rolling different tubes.

    I am looking to replace my Eastern Electric Avant pre-amp which uses (8) tubes. That's a whole lot of possible combinations. Also replacing my Pass Labs Aleph 30 amp. I am going the integrated route and looking at a Pass Labs INT-25

    5b9wkd5g9c61.png


    https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-int-25-integrated-amplifier

    https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/pass-labs-int-25-integrated-amplifier/

    https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/integrated-amplifiers/pass-labs-int-25-integrated-amplifier-review/

    https://www.hifinews.com/content/pass-labs-int-25-integrated-amplifier

    https://www.ecoustics.com/reviews/pass-labs-int-25-integrated-amplifier/

    In the past month I've seen 3 come up for sale all slightly used. MSRP is $7600 and I just don't want to take the depreciation hit and that's a lot of bones to part with even though funds are there. Used prices seem to hover $5200-5600, plus shipping and Paypal fees.

    I just don't feel comfortable sending a perfect stranger almost $6K. If I got scammed, I'd lose my ****. So, what does everyone do short of trying to find someone local to meet up with for a sale? Which would be next to impossible for a piece like this as it's not that common. These are fairly new in production so not a lot of used ones out there. The 3-4 I've been looking at are gone in less than 12 hours.

    Am I covered as a buyer for this kind of money if it goes south? $2K savings on average over new is significant. If the savings was less, I'd opt for a dealer for the piece of mind and less hassle.

    Please discuss if you have some experience buying higher priced gear from US Audio Mart or Audiogon. I won't spend that kind of money on EBAY.

    H9

    Sometimes Brock I'd swear you live under a rock.
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    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,528
    At those prices used I'd be looking to get a new one from an authorized dealer that does trade ins.
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,949
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Good luck in your search Brock.
    Maybe reach out to Mr. Skipworth at audio thesis. I know he's had to use those two off and on, he may be able to shed some light

    I would reach out to Skip at AudioThesis before you go with the INT-25.

    Speaking from first hand experience having had both pieces in my own room, the Norma IPA-140 pretty much destroys the INT-25. There, I said it.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    So on the other side of the coin, I would never meet anyone for a piece of gear that they did not pay me 100% up front (on the first transaction). I've bought and sold hundreds of pieces of gear over the past two decades and I find the best way to feel someone out on a higher priced transaction is to just talk to them on the phone. If the phone call feels weird, it is probably because it IS weird and that should be a red flag. Most audiophiles are just regular people who enjoy audio and are not looking to screw someone over.

    As Jesse said, paypal... Credit card... Can even use an escrow service for the ultra high end purchases... Third party holds the money until verified all parties are happy with the transaction.

    Ebay is pretty safe to purchase through. I've bought and sold on usaudiomart and audio on many times as well.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • kevhed72
    kevhed72 Posts: 5,059
    If you Paypal attached to a credit card, I believe you have 2 layers to protect yourself. I would file a fraud claim first with the credit card co. if something went bad, as the one time this happened to me they, seemed easier to deal with than PP. You normally have 90 days to file a claim with your credit card company....I believe but different cards may be different.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,981
    At that price range, I'd find a demo unit from a reputable dealer. Also agree with Ivan, call Skip and see if he has any inroads. He also might be of help helping you sell your stuff . Doesn't hurt to talk to him and get the lay of the land.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,194
    edited February 2022
    All good advice. I guess I am not opposed to Paypal, they are pro buyer. I'll just need to read the fine print again.

    A dealer demo would be ideal, but they are few and far between at this point.

    Definitely have a phone conversation before I send that kind of $$$.

    Is there a way to use a credit card without going through a 3rd party app like Zelle or Venmo, etc. I have been looking at Zelle, which my bank, uses and I can't find anything about fraud protection beyond them stating your personal information is secure.

    I'll have to look closer at Venmo to see what the specific protections there are for a dispute over the merchandise. I'll also have to see if using a CC with Paypal gives me the CC protection or just PP protection.......or both.

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,899
    edited February 2022
    Emlyn wrote: »
    At those prices used I'd be looking to get a new one from an authorized dealer that does trade ins.

    ... or a used one [from a dealer...].
    I concur, FWIW: payin' that kind of money, I'm going to want to buy from a known, trusted resource. Could be a hifi colleague or a dealer.
    1) One tends to get what one pays for.
    2) Caveat emptor.

    Meanwhile, for my part, I'll ask my son-in-law to keep an eye out for one at the Grantham dump. B)


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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    Venmo, zelle, etc has no protection
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,143
    Why shy away from ebay? With paypal and a cc you're doubly protected. FWIW I've bought several high $$ pieces from the bay and only had one problem. A Mcintosh tuner came through smashed one time and the buyer claimed I purposely destroyed it which I did not. Ebay did not believe the seller and refunded me the full amount including return shipping.

    Ebay is all about protecting the buyer so actually one is triple protected. I might add that unscrupulous buyers are aware of this policy and they take full advantage of it. I've had my fill of selling gear on fb marketplace and craigs and I can just imagine being a seller on ebay is many times worse.

    FWIW I've also had several transactions using paypal on US Audiomart and they went smoothly as well.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,560
    edited February 2022
    if using a CC with Paypal gives me the CC protection or just PP protection.......or both.

    I would think it's both.

    The eBay thing is so pro buyer now I refuse to sell on eBay. It's not that I'd be out to s crew someone over, its the folks at the other end I could send perfectly wonderful gear to that would make up some story. They would be refunded and IF they ship back the item it wouldn't be pack properly and I'd be out money and the item.
    It has been getting more and more difficult to give a negative feedback on eBay, if you do the seller or buyer can complain and it is removed. On top if that the feedback starts all over every year so you cannot see how a seller or buyers history looks except for one year.
    Post edited by pitdogg2 on
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  • GlennDog
    GlennDog Posts: 3,120
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    if using a CC with Paypal gives me the CC protection or just PP protection.......or both.


    It has been getting more and more difficult to give a negative feedback on eBay, if you do the seller or buyer can complain and it is removed. On top if that the feedback starts all over ever year so you cannot see how a seller or buyers history looks except for one year.

    NOT cool
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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,652
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    On top if that the feedback starts all over every year so you cannot see how a seller or buyers history looks except for one year.

    Actually, you can look at their feedback going all the way back to their beginning on eBay.
    But they do "refresh" your feedback each year.

    So you can see all of the feedback to the beginning. But when you look at their "at a glance" chart, that only goes back the last 12 months.



    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,560
    edited February 2022
    Interesting Ryan I've not found that evidently.

    I've actually just clicked on their name and feedback scores and I've started noticing I couldn't see anything but the last year. So you see someone with 100% positive feedback it is only for that year.
    Either way even if you had poor feedback in the past you no longer carry that forward like years past.
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  • gyosa
    gyosa Posts: 752
    I got burned using PayPal last year .
    The seller shipped an empty box to my house , PayPal refused to reimburse me because the seller was able to provide them with a tracking number.

    It took a couple of months to get it sorted out with my credit card company- I used a credit card via PayPal.

    I will never , ever use PayPal again…. Contrary to what many believe , PayPal offers no real protection against smart fraudsters compared to a credit card.

    FWIW ….

    BK
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,194
    Maybe this is a stupid question but how do you use a CC other than Paypal? Venmo and Zelle facilitate CC use, but have no protection against fraud. Paypal can be "beat" by a good fraudster.

    I realize a fraudster probably isn't going to post a low volume, specific piece of audio gear for sale. I'm thinking more a long the lines of not getting the item as described, or non-working or severely damaged or not getting it at all.

    Maybe my fear for something as specific and costly (for the seller) as a piece of Pass gear is misplaced and I'm worrying for nothing. Odds are someone who bought a $5-7K amp is on the up and up and not out to screw someone.

    I looked into the escrow service when I bought my EE Avant, but decided the cost and time wasn't worth it at that time.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,741
    maybe wait until one pops up on tmr or kahl audio
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,560
    Your fears are not unwarranted Brock. If there's money to be stolen people get creative.
    There has been several here with WTB ads approached by unsavory folks...
    PM's sent to them asking to send money.
    So yes due diligence is a must.
    @Toolfan66 was the last recipient of a PM.

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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,091
    Hey Brock,

    Did you try here? They also carry refurbished gear.

    https://renohifi.com/Instocklist.htm
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • jbreezy5
    jbreezy5 Posts: 1,141
    Try Reno Hifi, Mark Sammut. I bought an X250.5 from him. He was awesome to work with!
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  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,289
    edited February 2022
    Also give Albert at precision a/v in Chicago a call. He has a TON of used equipment, he is who I got my Kantas from and he was great to work with
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,302
    I googled Pass Lab dealers...some do trade-ins and resale like TMR has a INT25 now

    https://tmraudio.com/components/integrated-amplifiers/

    Echo Audio who I have bought from before,,,has used equipment and a good dealer. They also have a request link for you to apply for what you are looking for...

    https://www.google.com/search?q=pass+labs+dealers&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS967US967&oq=Pass+Labs+dealers&aqs=chrome.0.0i512l3j0i22i30.9712j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
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    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    Get the Norma, mo' better!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,194
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    I googled Pass Lab dealers...some do trade-ins and resale like TMR has a INT25 now

    https://tmraudio.com/components/integrated-amplifiers/

    Echo Audio who I have bought from before,,,has used equipment and a good dealer. They also have a request link for you to apply for what you are looking for...

    https://www.google.com/search?q=pass+labs+dealers&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS967US967&oq=Pass+Labs+dealers&aqs=chrome.0.0i512l3j0i22i30.9712j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    I see the one on tmraudio. Unfortunately I was at the dentist earlier in the week and I'm probably going to need an implant for one of my front teeth. I have a consult with a periodontist next week. So any purchases are on hold. The quote for an implant is close to $5K including the temporary flipper tooth.

    Until I know what I'm dealing with, everything is on hold. Insurance will cover a portion up to a max of $1500 for the year. It was the perfect opportunity to buy one as TMRaudio is the type of place I'd rather deal with.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • GlennDog
    GlennDog Posts: 3,120
    If you have time to shop for the implant, there are WAY less expensive options. There are dental schools that are well supervised. Also, I discovered a Teaching DDS near me that was extremely quick, painless and about $2.1K complete
    Just say'n . . . there are options. Good luck!
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