Improving the tool collection.....FLIR MR277 Moisture Meter, MSX IR Camera & Hygrometer

treitz3

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08497W2XK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I just pounced on something that *most* homeowners would never consider. Instead of paying a company to come in and give me a report of issues? I decided tonight that I would handle it myself.

I'd like to know where in the F the bats are roosting "somewhere" in my attic beyond or near the ridge vent (they fly in but then disappear without a trace). I'd like to know why the humidity in my home is above what would be considered "normal". I'd like to know if there is any missing insulation anywhere or if I could possibly add some in places that I never would have thought of to improve comfort, I'd like to know where the drafts are coming from without a guess (out of outlets, windows, doors, etc.)....and I'd like to do all of this without tearing up a very well built house.

The reason I posted this is that I know we have one home inspector on this board. I was just wondering if any of you have used a tool like this to find out things about the homestead and if there was any other useful reasons to own such a thing.

I know that this will help me in my trade but that is not why I purchased it. I purchased this just for me and improving/identifying any possible issues within the homestead.

The wife wasn't too impressed about the purchase but....it is what it is. If only she knew what I have blown on audio purchases... LOL

Any insights, suggestions or advice?

Tom

mrbigbluelight

Any GOOD insights, suggestions or advice?

Fixed that for you Tom.

Otherwise you might have received a lot of poor input from some of the rambuctious malcontents on here who might misuse this opportunity to entertain themselves.
Poorly.

{sweat breaking out on forehead}

....stepping away from the keyboard.
🥴

GlennDog

Next month I’ll have the pleasure of attending a full day lecture by Joe Lstiburek. He’s got an excellent book that I’ll reference later, when I get home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lstiburek

I think basements are a rarity in SC. So get your crawlspace read on!

https://www.buildingscience.com/file/12437/download?token=JiJShMk7

Air infiltration and an improper crawl thermal barrier is the place to start. Crawl moisture can easily migrate upward into the living space (and the attic, too. Check for mold up there)

. . . Good luck!

treitz3

No mold, no effervescence....just higher than normal humidity that I would like to correct. We do need to add in additional moisture barrier under the brick front porch and more under a 20 year old addition but other than that? Nothing really strikes me as a "obvious" culprit. We are about 20% higher than a normal household (Should be between 30-50% humidity).

It has always been a comfortable home to live in and it still is, I just want to improve it.

Thanks.

Tom

GlennDog

regarding indoor humidity . . . are there lots of indoor plants, aquariums, daily cooking involving lots of boiling water and are the bathrooms venting thru insulated ducts (thru the attic) to the exterior?
Dedicated weather-hoods are best, don't vent to a roof vent. Try not to vent to soffit or gable ends and definitely not into the attic.

Maybe your AC unit is oversize? It shouldn't short cycle and run (almost) constantly is the south, IIRC (I'm in what's considered a cold climate). Better to go Smaller in BTU/tonnage rating than too big. Also, AC compressor/condensing unit should be in the shade, if possible. Create shade, if necessary.

You mentioned drafts. Best option would be to do a blower door test. With the fan/blower running your IR camera will indicate exactly where the major breachers are.
If you're mostly concerned with drafts. Start with the BDT (blower door test)

This is the book I was thinking of earlier . . .

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334102147771

treitz3

Regarding indoor humidity . . . are there lots of indoor plants, aquariums, daily cooking involving lots of boiling water and are the bathrooms venting thru insulated ducts (thru the attic) to the exterior?

We do have a bit of indoor plants, but we also have lots of square footage that makes them not an issue. They are not in every room. The rooms that they are in get lots of sunlight and those are the rooms that have the lowest humidity (according to the hygrometer). Daily cooking may be a culprit, but we haven’t really cooked that much lately (Been busy with work, as usual, and I cook more than my wife does). The bathrooms have an auto sensor that activates the fans that go above the roofline well beyond 20-25 minutes after the showers are taken. No aquariums currently but I’d like to take them out of the shop and add them again!

Might need to investigate going beyond the ones I have and look into a higher CFPM fan(s).

Dedicated weather-hoods are best, don't vent to a roof vent.

Hmmm, I will have to investigate those. Never heard of them before. All vents (except the microwave) are vented directly above the roof with straight PVC pipe and a rubber boot.

Try not to vent to soffit or gable ends and definitely not into the attic.

None are going into the attic or any soffit. It’s a brick home with metal wrapping and vinyl soffits (vented). The only other vinyl is above the large front porch overhang that has a large ridge vent as well (about 4 to 5 feet in width).

Maybe your AC unit is oversize? It shouldn't short cycle and run (almost) constantly is the south, IIRC (I'm in what's considered a cold climate). Better to go Smaller in BTU/tonnage rating than too big. Also, AC compressor/condensing unit should be in the shade, if possible. Create shade, if necessary.

The unit is undersized and does not run constantly. The gas pack/condenser unit is on the west side of the home and is only exposed to the direct sun for approximately 4 hours per day……and is half way wrapped in an alternating brick wall (exposed holes in the wall) that is 3 to 4 feet away (depending on the side of the brick wall) and has no organic growth near it, so it can breathe properly.

You mentioned drafts. Best option would be to do a blower door test. With the fan/blower running your IR camera will indicate exactly where the major breachers are. If you're mostly concerned with drafts. Start with the BDT (blower door test).

During the summer, we can set the HVAC to whatever temp (usually 74 in the summer) we want and even if we turn it off mid-day and it’s 103 degrees outside? It will still be about 76 at nightfall. There isn’t much energy loss.

Same thing during the winter. We usually set it at 72 degrees and if we turn it off for a couple of days? It only goes down a couple of degrees unless it’s something like 15 degrees outside. We have a ventilated crawl space with automatic vents (plenty of them) surrounding the entire perimeter. When I checked last year, they were still all operational at around 33 degrees (they closed). I’m very proactive about making sure they are correctly operating every winter and I will adjust or oil the flaps if necessary.

Drafts aren't really my concern. Bugs even have a hard time getting in. LOL. I am just curious on the areas that maybe I hadn't thought of yet.

What tipped me off to a possible issue with humidity was one of the humidity sensors in the MBR bathroom started going off at night. I thought it was just a faulty sensor, so we kept the bathroom door open (we have 2 ceiling fans in the MBR to circulate air right outside of the bathroom). Well, it still kept turning on at night. Grrr.

So, I dove in and adjusted the sensitivity of the sensor a couple of times thinking that this would solve the issue. It kept turning on at night. So, I adjusted it all of the way down to the lowest setting. It still turned on at night but for shorter periods of time.

Then I got to thinking that maybe it wasn't a faulty sensor, that maybe....just maybe it was doing the job I installed it to do. That being to measure the humidity level and turn on when it was needed. This is what prompted this whole shebang. When I went to do further investigation? It turns out that it works perfectly. I just have higher than normal humidity in that area of the home. Still very comfortable but it's something I'd like to address.

Tom

treitz3

BTW, I found the book for $6.00. Thanks for the tip! Much appreciated.

Tom

treitz3

So, you are suggesting something like this for the dedicated weather hood?

https://pipebootexpress.com/vent-pipe-rain-cap?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg-qTv8q-8wIVGKbICh2k-QqXEAsYASABEgI4HPD_BwE

Tom

GlennDog

so it's excessive humidity in the Master Bed & bath areas . . . . ONLY?

If so, the crawl vapor barrier may be breached under that portion of the home.
. . . and do the obvious, but over-looked . . . .free-flowing gutters (no debris inside them), grade is sloped away from crib and downspout extensions are discharging 6 feet from foundation wall.

"They say" and incomplete or breached crawl vapor barrier is essentially No Vapor barrier at all. Triple check it, Big Dog!

Nice score on the book. I think I paid $120 when it first came out

treitz3

That is definitely one of the areas that the moisture barrier is missing. That and the front porch and sun room. We will be installing that today, when my son gets back from having fun.

I did take a dehumidifier and place it in the bathroom and ran it for most of the day yesterday. Emptied about 2 gallons of water. The moisture sensor I had originally thought was bad (because it kept going off at night) never turned on.

So, I have identified the issue. It's not the sensor, It's definitely a moisture problem. I'll run the dehumidifier again today and install the rest of the moisture barrier and see where the humidity levels land after a day or two without running the dehumidifier.

The FLIR should be here toward the end of the month.

The previous homeowner installed a concrete "moat" around the house that blocks any water from getting to within 4 feet of the home from lawn runoff (mostly back and West side of home....the land is at a slight angle with a large field behind us). Even during the heaviest of rains with a saturated ground? That has never been breached and directs all of the runoff around both sides of the home. All gutters are clear, functional and the downspouts are directed underground, then released on the outside of said "moat", keeping *most* rain directed away from the foundation. The plants soak up what little bit of rain is within that 4 foot boundary, as I have a 2 foot roof overhang.

We do have an extensive concrete driveway and some of that runoff from the field out back/backyard is directed between my home and the shop....but the water flows over the area between the two buildings and into a large French drain that is underneath the drive. So, all runoff and gutters on that side of the home/shop all divert water from the gutters into said French drain and that empties out way out at the drainage ditch at the end of the driveway.

I do have 2 areas where the gutters "pee" little streams of water when it rains at 2 corners of the home and I have gutter sealant to stop those but I do not think those are the issue, as they are at the opposite side of the home from the higher moisture readings.

The last time I had a termite inspection, the inspector *did* mention that I had higher than normal moisture readings in the MBR/MBthR/Front porch areas....and that this was attributed to the moisture barrier not being present in those areas. They wanted almost $500.00 to install it.....um, that'll be a "No, thanks".

Ever since then, my mad procrastination skills have taken over and I have constantly come up with higher priority projects/items to address. Well, today, this one just got bumped up to the top of the priority list.

Tom

GlennDog

keep us posted!

treitz3

OOOoooookay.

Riddle me this. My son Aiden and I were down there doing our thing after the sun went down (too hot during the day, plus I aerated, over seeded and mowed 1.3 acres) and I came across a very weird thing.

One of the ducts going into the DR was drooping down and I told Aiden that we would need to reroute that so it flowed properly....as I was saying that, I lifted it up from the bottom and it was filled with water!

WTF?

I checked all of the other HVAC vents and they seem to be fine but that one? It's like someone poured 3 gallons of water in from the floor vent. How in the hell can that happen? My nose is VERY attuned to mold, as I have been in the repair, reno industry for 2 decades (seen and smelled just about everything imaginable) and I can proficiently smell mold from 20 feet before I hit the front door of a home.

Below this particular vent, there was no moisture barrier and there is now signs of effervescence on the floor joists near it but not much at all at this point. What would cause so much water collecting in just one vent half way through the HVAC ductwork?

Tom

GlennDog

The lack of moisture barrier and the efflorescence is clearly indicating a lack of water vapor control. But how in the heck all a lot of the moisture went directly into the HVAC vent is crazy. What are the odds?

Check that DR duct for cuts/tears . . . and you are 100% sure it's supply and not return?
Crawl work is not fun. Sometimes work gets sloppy. I've seen supply vents connected to cold air return. Plz check it

Was it also wet on the ground in that same area? Not that it matters much.

Vent was just sagging and not partially disconnected in any way?

It's a good idea to run a dehumidifier in the crawl

Make sure vent-to floor connection is air tight. The interior living space should not communicate with the (unconditioned) crawl or attic

Just wondering where your crawl insulation is . . . between the joists (hope not) or perimeter wall?

Crawl floor is covered with 6 mil+ plastic?

Might wanna just install that vapor barrier and check back in a few days

treitz3

I'm too old for this ****.

Sore as heck, skin ripped at the elbows, sore back and knees with plenty of pain to go around (anyone looking for some?), I did find a leak. Well, kinda. I noticed, as Aiden and I were installing some moisture barrier around the pressure tank that it had what appeared to be bubbles under the paint. So, I pushed on one and a drop of water came out from within the bubble.

"Technically", I would not qualify this as a leak because it's not constant flowing and this is definitely not the cause of the excessive moisture but it is something that I will have to address rather soon. Upon further inspection, it seems as if the tank has about 10 small "bubbles" on the side of the tank....which tells me that it has reached the end of it's useful life and must be replaced soon.

She's a biggun and I am now wondering how in the heck I am gonna get one through the crawlspace door. I might have to take off the frame and go down to straight brick. Oi.

https://www.zoro.com/flotec-tank-precharged-35-gal-fp7120/i/G7044147/



We have been able to drop the indoor humidity level considerably but we are still above average. When speaking to my HVAC guy, he stated that I should be at a target indoor humidity level of about 43%. We still have a long way to go to get to that target humidity level. Even in the area of the home that has no issue, we still register with an old school hygrometer of 55% and that's been consistent throughout the years and is on the other side of the home from where the original moisture sensor kept going off at night.

Tom

GlennDog

congrats! . . . I think you found the culprit.
A constant drip left unattended can amount to an awful lot. . . . I bet that's the devil on your back!

treitz3

That's the thing. It's not a constant drip. It's actually just a rust bubble that I popped. Somehow, moisture got in-between the tank and the (I presume) powder coating on the outside of the tank. Once the bubbles were popped? No more water source. Kinda like popping a water balloon.

The pre-charged pressure tank is holding steady at 30psi and seems to lower, then kick on only when needed, going right back up to 30psi, so I am assuming that the tank has no leaks. Just rust pockets of moisture buildup on the outside of the tank.

I'm taking a break tonight. This old man is not used to crawing around a 2400 sqft crawl space laying down plastic and checking everything out. I am sore in the ribs, elbows, knees and back. Gonna take a break for a while and resume when my body reclaims itself.

The good news is that we are averaging only 53% indoor humidity right now. That came way down from the 74% we were at. The outside humidity has been hanging around 84%. Still work to be done but like I said, I need to recoup first.

Being 3% over normal is okay for now. My target is to get it down to 43% inside. Just not today.

Tom

GlennDog

My money is on the tank leaking at different rates under different conditions. I hope when the tank is replaced, the excessive humidity ceases ...

crack a cold one and rock that badAs$ rig

VR3

I've found relative humidity goals will differ on who you ask.

50 to 60 indoor is OK from what I've read, anything over that can go sideways.

Likewise under 40 can cause health issues

VR3

Also, dehumidifier in the crawl is the way to go for sure!

I've been running one in mine for a year ducts have zero sweat in the summer

treitz3

It hit and I am playing with it now. Nothing out of the ordinary that I can "thermally" see. That's good news....but I am walking around inside of the home.

One thing of note.....the LCD TV puts off a hella amount of heat, even after being turned off for about an hour. Never would have thought that.

One thing I can tell is that my wife is hot!

Tom

treitz3

GlennDog wrote: »

The lack of moisture barrier and the efflorescence is clearly indicating a lack of water vapor control. But how in the heck all a lot of the moisture went directly into the HVAC vent is crazy. What are the odds?

I spoke with my HVAC guy. This is apparently (and unfortunately) common.

It's all about a temperature differential. He stated that there has to have been a temperature differential in the duct work and asked if there was a "compromise". I initially told him, "No" but upon further inspection? Yes. Someone at some point had cut the duct and literally "Duct Taped" it together.

Oi.

This is what caused the temperature differential. It was the ONLY duct in the house that had duct tape and not the proper material to seal and it was the only area in the house that failed years later (we have been living in this home for about 8 years). The proper conditions, given the proper ill advised repairs? This is what you end up with even though we have lived here for 8 years and all was well before now.

Duct tape is only rated for a certain amount of time. Proper HVAC tape is....well "proper" and can last for decades or longer.

I will need to "bleed" out said HVAC duct with a pinhole, dump said moisture and seal it back up properly. At that point, I will need to assess if I need to get the duct work scrubbed out/cleaned or simply replace that line.

Tom

GlennDog

What about replacing the duct? Slam dunk, get 'er done right away

The ducts are insulated, right? That's the way we do it when running ducts thru the attic


Glad you found the problem

VR3

Definitely just replace the duct... If you can find any 😜😜

treitz3

Key words, "If I can find any". Yes, all of the duct work is insulated.

Tom