Recommendations for late 1960s all tube setup.

odcics2

Receiver? Or separates?
On a budget so no McIntosh or Marantz!
Opinions please. Thanks!

mhardy6647

Separates. Unless you really, really really want to listen to the radio*.
On a budget? ... heh, heh, heh

Well -- I could write a book. Maybe I should...
You would do well to spend some time nosin' around at audiokarma (if you haven't already)...
That said, there are still "lower priced" options -- totally (!) dependent on the loudspeakers you'll use your electronics with.

IF you can get away with 4 to 12 watts (per channel), consider a rehabilitated and "housebroken" stereo hifi console (power) amplifier. Many folks have scavenged these decent quality amplifiers from Maggotbox Magnavox, Zenith, GE, Westinghouse, Silvertone, etc. console hifis, replaced the age-worn passive components and made them more or less fit for standalone use. Some of these amps are of very respectable sonic quality and are still relatively (relatively) inexpensive.

Here's an example: A semi-housebroken Magnavox push-pull 6V6 stereo (power) amplifier -- about 10 watts per channel. I "did" this one for a hifi friend in MA many years back.


P1020244 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
P1020247 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(when it comes to the mauve carpeting -- please don't judge me -- we redid that room in the '90s, and those photos are fairly old. )

On the other hand, here's what a more enterprising restorer did with a fairly similar Magnavox console amp -- this one a push-pull 6BQ5 stereo amp (ca. 12 wpc). The major differences here are cosmetic.

Souped up Maggotbox from AA by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(this image was 'borrowed' from a thread on audioasylum)


Pair one of these console amps with almost any preamp (or a source with a variable volume control) and sensitive enough loudspeakers (another subject entirely) and you're all set.

Now... if you want to (i.e., can) spend more $$$... read on...


_____________
* If you do, get a restored Fisher 400 or 500C and call it a day.

mhardy6647

Now, if you want something a little more... umm... civilized, and "on a budget"...
1) I hope you realize that, especially in 2021, "on a budget" absolutely and irrevocably does NOT mean cheap -- with the increasingly rare exception of exceptionally good luck (remember, chance favors the prepared mind) and/or the ability/willingness to sling some solder, invest some sweat equity, and resurrect a fixer-upper.

That said, 2) There are more cost effective options than the two "M" brands called out in the OP. and 3) Integrated amplifiers are a relatively "budget" approach for good vintage vacuum tube sound.

Personal faves:

1) Sherwood. Superb tuners (yeah, I know I said, in essence, "why would you want a radio?" before ) and very good amplifiers... with cosmetics that... well... maybe only their Mom could love. The idiosyncratic design of the Sherwoods might make them a little more affordable -- but they're very, very good. Here're a few of mine (currently shelf queens, but all fully functional).

DSC_8058 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

Shown above are two (mono) tuners, one FM only, the other AM & FM, and a stereo integrated amp. The latter uses push-pull 7868 output tubes for ca. 25 to 30 wpc.

DSC_1795 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

2) HH Scott. Scott made a number of good lower- and higher-powered integrated stereo amplifiers. Personally, I like the 222 series, which use push-pull 6BQ5 outputs (i.e., about 12 wpc). Here's my 222C (semi-restored... I need to finish that... someday...)

Scott and Tandberg by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(the Scott's on top of the Tandberg )

The HH Scott tuners are very, very good.

3) Fisher. The Fisher integrateds are excellent, but tend to be more expensive... and... I don't have any I did rehab an X-101 (stereo push-pull 6BQ5 integrated) for a friend in MA once, though -- and I did like it very much.



The Fisher tuners are very, very good, but tend to be expensive.

4) EICO. Ugly but good. Not as cheap as they should be any more, though. Some of the extra-ugly EICOs might be relatively cost-effective. This nearly lookalike pair (ST-40 and ST-70) are probably the prize winners in terms of both ugliness and value. Look awful, sound good. EICO used excellent iron (output transformers, that is) and that's part of the reason that they're not cheap.
These were kits, though, so any given 'find' may be well or shabbily built, so caveat emptor.

DSC_9827 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

(I have spruced these up a little since this photo was taken -- but they're still big, heavy and ugly.

5) Runners-up:
a) consider a pair of mono integrated amplifiers (e.g., EICO HF-12)
b) harman/kardon -- h/k vacuum tube era stuff is good (some of it is great). The great stuff (e.g., Citation II) is outta sight expensive. The good stuff tended to use early printed circuit boards ("space age technology"!) which haven't aged well... but the more ordinary 1960s hk components are attractive, relatively plentiful, not bad, and not so expensive. I don't have any hk "separates" of that era, but I do have a low-end hk receiver of the era which is... OK.
c) off brands. One example: EJ Korvettes, a popular department store, at least in the mid-Atlantic, sold decent-quality vacuum-tube components under their XAM brand that were made by harman/kardon.
d) Japanese brands. Pioneer, Kenwood, Sansui, Delmonico (JVC) made some OK to good tube components. They're not necessarily common. One exception is the adorable little Pioneer SX-34 and SX-34B, which was also sold by Allied Radio as the Allied or Knight "333". Push-pull 6BM8 for a blistering 8 wpc. A rats-nest of wires underneath but a decent enough little receiver. There were also integrated amp and tuner 'separate' versions.
e) Heathkit. From junk to treasure, and again, kits. The best Heathkit components are pricey. Some of the cheaper ones will be unremarkable and likely kinda worn-down, but OK. One cute option (no longer cheap): the AA-32 integrated amplifier. This used push-pull 6GW8 tubes to hit that same magic "8 wpc" spot as the above-mentioned 333. I paid $50 for one in good condition -- you're not likely to find an ambulatory one for that nowadays, though.
f) Dynaco. The SCA-35 (stereo pp7189/6BQ5 integrated) is kind of crude in its guts but has very good iron and on the whole is not bad at all. It's very nice looking in the 60s/Dynaco way. I used one as the "main" amp in the NH house before we moved up here full time and was perfectly satisfied.

DSC_6212 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

The Dynaco ST-35 is an extremely nice stereo power amp and a personal fave (and, no, sadly, there's not one here).

There's more... should I stop or go on?

tonyp063

Mark,

What about a Dynaco ST-35?

mhardy6647

tonyp063 wrote: »

Mark,

What about a Dynaco ST-35?

I was editing furiously It's there now, too.
I did skip the Dynaco ST-70... but that's just me.

odcics2

Great input!
Dynaco has been called, “the poor mans Mac!”

invalid

There's tons of mods and info on the Dynaco amps, they really are a great tube amp for reasonable prices.

odcics2

Incidentally, I do listen to the radio. Late night AM, searching the dial for those elusive stations lost during daytime static...
There is something nostalgic about those AM stations with limited frequency, no high end!
I remember driving around the country, only had an AM radio in my 68 Charger.
Man, those were some fun times!

Are Bogen tube amps any good? A friend has one with 65 wpc. Not sure of the model yet. I'll report back
when he digs it out.

Thanks for all the great info so far.

mhardy6647

Bogen made some decent consumer mono & stereo components, but most of their components were for PA systems and pro audio. The latter are generally not really suitable for home hifi (although some are considered "sleepers" by some folks for domestic use).

If you want to get a feel for some of the lesser-known (today, that is) hifi and pro audio brands from days gone by, leaf through the late 50s through early 60s catatlogs at https://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/index.htm#main_catalogs
Bell, Bogen, Pilot -- many others.

"Radio"? Get a Sherwood S3000V for (stereo) FM and be amazed by the sound quality. I paid $30 for mine albeit some years ago. It was the "daily driver" for hifi FM here until I acquired a (rather more expensive) McIntosh MR-67.


Sherwood S3000 V 1 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

Anecdotally, the old Sherwoods seem to work well "as found" -- whereas the HH Scott & Fisher tuners I have acquired generally need a fair amount of TLC and work to get up to snuff... and, personally, I don't like workin' on radio circuitry

pitdogg2

I had some pilot gear as one of my first stereo's. Worked very good for the dollars spent.

mhardy6647

EDIT: oops wrong thread!
sorry

So, since I cannot delete the post... here, let's do this instead




source: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Allied-Catalogs/Allied-Catalog-1960.pdf

I should mention that all of the "stereo" tuners shown in the scans above predate the "modern" FCC-approved "multiplex" (MPX) FM stereo system (licensed in 1961) that we still use today for analog stereo FM These tuners were designed for a primitive system called "AM-FM simulcast stereo", where one channel was broadcast on an AM station, and the other on an FM station (!). Such tuners are essentially two complete tuners from input to output and by necessity have the best (audio) quality AM sections possible. Most actually can be adapted to modern MPX FM stereo with an outboard decoder if one really wants stereo, but due to their intrinsic oddness can often be acquired quite inexpensively.

odcics2

Found out the Bogen tube amp is a a DS-265.

mhardy6647

odcics2 wrote: »

Found out the Bogen tube amp is a a DS-265.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/bogen-ds-265-a-beast.915275/

odcics2

Any recommendations for a 68-69 vintage turntable and cartridge?

I used my parents Sears Silvertone suitcase record player, back then.
I was 12. Couldn’t afford anything of my own yet!!

I think the Bogen DS-265 is early 60s.
20-20k response. Massive output transformers. 3 rectifier tubes!😳😳😳

mhardy6647

odcics2 wrote: »

Any recommendations for a 68-69 vintage turntable and cartridge?

I used my parents Sears Silvertone suitcase record player, back then.
I was 12. Couldn’t afford anything of my own yet!!

I think the Bogen DS-265 is early 60s.
20-20k response. Massive output transformers. 3 rectifier tubes!😳😳😳

Yes, it is a very serious piece of hardware. Not just three HV rectifiers... three 5AR4s! Take a look at
prices for good NOS (or even used) 5AR4s. If it comes with three good ones, you're way ahead already.

Good record player from that era? Well, any transcription tt would be fine (but nice ones are pricey).
Take a look at relevant catalogs from Radio Shack and Allied Radio.
One of the Empire tts would be a pretty nice and also attractive option. Here's one that was on sale from Allied in Summer, 1968, e.g.


https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Allied-Catalogs/Allied-278-1968-Summer.pdf

Alternatively, something like a Garrard LAB-80 or SL-95 (etc.) or a DUAL 1019 (or other period-appropriate) would be a popular choice. I don't like the mechanical complexity of the Garrards & the DUALs, but other folks are more tolerant of them than I.

Cartridge? Well... the Denon DL-103 was available then and still is now That's what I use
You would need a step-up transformer or a high-gain phono preamp, though.

Preamp? That Bogen deserves a good one. Look around for an HH Scott 130. Nice stereo preamp. Not inexpensive, though.
Here's a slightly butchered one that I partially rehabbed, years back -- had to pass it along to an expert to undo the butchering, though (note the extra power transformer, for filaments, that had been hacked in).



a photo from teh webz of a pretty 130

mhardy6647

Back to cartridges: Grados, Pickerings, and Shures of that era were all good - and of course there were others (including Empire). In many cases, good quality aftermarket styli are still available for the better/more popular models.

For tt and cartridge ideas, peruse these LRE catalogs:
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Lafayette-Catalogs/Lafayette-1968-680.pdf
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Lafayette-Catalogs/Lafayette-1969-690.pdf

from that 1969 LRE catalog, e.g.

mhardy6647

Oh! I plumb forgot -- the AR-XA turntable was already available by the '68-69 timeframe. A tad fiddly, but a good option for higher-compliance cartridges. There is a whole cottage industry of AR-XA tt enhancements, tweaks, and add-ons, too (FWIW).

odcics2

The guy with the Bogen found a Dynaco tube preamp and tuner too.
Thinking a package deal. Dynaco tuner doesn't work, Pre unknown, Bogen lights up.

mhardy6647

The Dynaco vacuum tube preamps (PAS-2 and PAS-3/3X) were/are good though not great. That said, they're straightforward and there are scads of redesigned/upgraded PC boards and other modifications available to spruce them up. Also tons of documentation and DIY recipes for rehabbing and/or upgrading them. Decent and period appropriate, of course, and not particularly expensive.

Here's one that I rehabbed (not particularly elegantly, as you can see) for a fellow on AK some years back:


PAS-3X manual PDF (FWIW): https://www.thetubestore.com/lib/thetubestore/schematics/Dynaco/Dynaco-PAS-3X-Schematic-Owners-Manual.pdf

The vacuum tube Dynaco tuners are nice basic tuners - is it mono or MPX-stereo? Either way, they're simple (well... simple as far as an FM tuner goes) and quite reparable if not working. Free tip (and worth every penny ): If a tuner doesn't receive stations but "works" electrically, it is often (albeit not always!) possible to bring it back to life by one at a time removing each tube, cleaning the pins (and or the socket receptacles for each pin) and reinserting the tube. ONE AT A TIME is important, since there can be multiple copies of a single tube type (e.g., typically 6AU6) used in different parts of the tuned circuits -- and each circuit is tuned to the characteristics of a particular tube.
EDIT: One of the tubes is an HV rectifier. There should be no need to fiddle with that (assuming it's OK).

http://www.tubes4hifi.com/Dynaco FM-3 manual.pdf
(the manual for the MPX stereo FM3, FWIW)
N.B. NO WARRANTY EXPRESS(ED) OR IMPLIED if you choose to take any of my "advice"!

Also, it should go without saying, but 50-plus-year-old vacuum tube components NEED some rehabilitation (if they haven't had it already) to make them reliable and safe to use regularly at this late date. Coupling capacitors and power supply components (particularly electrolytic filter capacitors) almost certainly need to be replaced for long-term use without risk of expensive (or smoky/fiery) failures.

"Bogen lights up"... please, please, please tell me he/you/someone did NOT turn it on with no load connected!?!!!!!! (or, at least, if "they" did, I hope it was for a very brief time)
In case you/they didn't know, it is extremely risky to run a transformer-coupled amplifier sans load. There is a very real risk of burning out the output transformer(s).

odcics2

He plugged it in, it lit up! I don't own it... yet????

JayCee

@mhardy6647, your breadth of knowledge never ceases to amaze me. You downplay your skills but I believe it's just a cover. You must've been a cold war era spy that's now hiding out in the cover of sleepy NH.

Do you have/belong to a local audio club where you can share w/like minded folks in-person? On opposite ends of the CONUS but would be cool if I had similar this direction.

mhardy6647

I am nigh-on 100% skill free... ask my family.

I do remember useless trivia with a frightening level of scope, though. And I am (in some seriousness) well and formally trained in database querying/searching from way, way back in the Telenet/Tymnet days (and a system called Dialog).

Otherwise, well, I appreciate the compliment but I'm just a dilletante when it comes to hifi!

As I've mentioned before & elsewhere, there is a cabal of... umm... gurus in northern New England. Thankfully, they tolerate me.

SeleniumFalcon

How about the venerable Fisher 500C receiver? There's one in very good shape at Hub City Vinyl, Hagerstown MD. at a reasonable price and it might come with a warranty and they might ship. I've had one for many years and it sounds excellent, there's preamp out/power amp in connection as well as a derived center channel output. You could keep it for 10 years and probably resell it for more than you paid.

pitdogg2

That Fisher stuff is what I blame for all my bad audio decisions. If I had just never stepped into the basement of my neighbor down the street and got ears on his fisher console, I may have saved more money in life 😆😉

mhardy6647

500C's a nice piece -- I believe I mentioned that earlier in this thread, too. Nice amplifier section, good FM stereo (no AM)... I'd say the phono preamp is a weak point, but I'd just use an outboard phono preamp, were I going to set up a full-spectrum system around a 500C (FWIW). That said, there are tweaks and mods for the phono section of these.

Better yet: even Klipsch Cornwalls sound pretty good driven by a 500C.
Here's a really bad photo of just that -- well, actually, at the moment the photo was taken, it looks like the 500C was hooked to Allison Ones (!?).



I reckon 500Cs are right pricey at the moment, though.

mhardy6647

A better photo of my 500C. The radio part was rehabbed by Mike "PunkerX" Williams and the audio circuitry was done by... oh, jeepers... I am drawing a blank! Craig "NOSValves" Ostby.

DSC_9817 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

odcics2

Man, those are CLEAN!

odcics2

Mark - sent you a message...

mhardy6647

replied
bit busy at the ol' casa this week...

TroyD

The Fisher 500c is one piece of gear that I have lusted for for YEARS......

NH? Hmmmmm...coming up to visit the family in Maine next month. Kindly PM me your addy and time the house is most likely to be unoccupied. 😉

mhardy6647

Well...
If you feel like investing a little sweat equity, I've got a small stable of Fisher-y basket cases/organ donors, too. I can leave one out by the driveway when you drive by...

Fisher1400 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr