Nelson Pass First Watt amps

pearsall001
pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
in 2 Channel Audio
I'm intrigued from what I've read about his design philosophy in development of his First Watt line of amps.

All class A & low power to boot. Not designed to drive all speakers, mainly those with relatively high impedence

My speakers are 87db sensitivity & from what I can gather are right at the cutoff for those amps

I've been looking at the F7 & F8. Anyone have any first hand experience with his First Watt amps & in particular the two I mentioned.
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,269
    @heiney9 Brock and Doc Hardy are the ones that I know of with First watt knowledge
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    I own and am currently running two FW amps in two different systems. Unfortunately,the two I own are not those models. I'm running an F5,and a J2. I rotate 3 different speakers. Currently the F5 is driving Hornshoppe Great Horned Heils.( about 93db sensitivity). The J2 is driving Nola Boxer 2's.(about 90db) The third pair are Graham Chartwell LS 3/5.(about 84db)

    These amps work great for what I ask them to do. I don't listen to music at 100db anymore. I'm usually in the 85db if I'm rocking out. The FW amps are tremendous sounding in my opinion. I was also considering an F7, however a used J2 popped up first. Best of luck with your search. I look forward to your choice,and impressions.
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    TEAforONE wrote: »
    I own and am currently running two FW amps in two different systems. Unfortunately,the two I own are not those models. I'm running an F5,and a J2. I rotate 3 different speakers. Currently the F5 is driving Hornshoppe Great Horned Heils.( about 93db sensitivity). The J2 is driving Nola Boxer 2's.(about 90db) The third pair are Graham Chartwell LS 3/5.(about 84db)

    These amps work great for what I ask them to do. I don't listen to music at 100db anymore. I'm usually in the 85db if I'm rocking out. The FW amps are tremendous sounding in my opinion. I was also considering an F7, however a used J2 popped up first. Best of luck with your search. I look forward to your choice,and impressions.

    Thanks for the info. I'm pretty much in the same camp as you that I don't need or even want to blast my system. My speakers are 87db so I believe the FW amps would be more than up to the task
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 570
    I have a pair of both the F1 and F2 models, that being current source amps, are not for most speaker systems. Then a pair of DIY F4's that are the only super high power amps amongst my FW amps....being I think 40w models when run as monoblocks. :) Or is it 25w? Can't remember as it's way more power than I need. DIY'd several models and played with them. But again, not the models you've got an eye on.

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    One suggestion I’d like to make. FW amps run on the rather warm side. Good ventilation is a must. I originally purchased the J2 to run in my main system. That’s where it will be in the winter months. It warms my small listening room considerably! So,for the summer months it resides in the system in our finished basement. I keep both amps free air on amp stands.
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 570
    If the OP is interested in a F7, then you might want to keep an eye on the auction one on eBay. Closing Monday during the day.

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    CoolJazz wrote: »
    If the OP is interested in a F7, then you might want to keep an eye on the auction one on eBay. Closing Monday during the day.

    CJ
    That’s a very recent build. It has the new faceplate with only 1 light.
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    The F7 sold for $1824. That was a great deal!
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • GlennDog
    GlennDog Posts: 3,120
    Did First Watt morph out of the Aleph Volks line?
    AC Regenerator PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
    Source Lumin U1 Mini into Lampizator Baltic 4 DAC
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    GlennDog wrote: »
    Did First Watt morph out of the Aleph Volks line?

    That's a great question. I did a little research, and Pass Labs was founded in 1991,and started producing the class A, Aleph series of single ended amps. That was where he started. I believe the spirit behind FW was he wanted to experiment with simple low power amps, in a very limited build situation,but separate from Pass Labs. I think he built all FW amps himself until 2016,or 17'. I know my FW F5 was built by him.( literally) I'm pretty sure my J2 was built by the Pass Labs production team.


    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • Navy_Goat
    Navy_Goat Posts: 375
    Interesting discussion here. I have been trying to talk myself in to a FW DIY build over the past few months. Earlier in the discussion @pearsall001 mentioned that the FW ams are low power and built to work well with high impedance speakers. Can anyone expand on the high impedance logic? Thanks,

    Caleb
    SDA SRS 2.3tl, SDA 1C, SDA 2B (TL mod), Reserve 200
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,411
    Maybe he meant high efficiency. I remember seeing some speakers years back that were high 90's low 100's..
    There used to be 16ohm speakers as well.
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  • maxward
    maxward Posts: 1,573
    @Navy_Goat one of these probably would be a great match for Zu speakers.
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    I know Nelson Pass said with the F5,it can dip down to 2ohms without misbehaving.
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,269
    ywnj2cvz2o8y.png
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • Navy_Goat
    Navy_Goat Posts: 375
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Maybe he meant high efficiency. I remember seeing some speakers years back that were high 90's low 100's..
    There used to be 16ohm speakers as well.

    That makes sense. Any FW clone I build would be for a pair of speakers that advertises 97db efficiency and 12 ohm impedance. I think they would be a good match.

    In the interest of domestic tranquility around my house I will wait a little while as I just finished another kit amp build, but I will get to a First Watt soon enough. At least I will if I don't get distracted.
    SDA SRS 2.3tl, SDA 1C, SDA 2B (TL mod), Reserve 200
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,269
    You'll have to match with a pre the doesn't have a hair trigger...

    This does make me interested in a DIY
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    It appears the F7 on eBay is back up for sale. No affiliation.
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • kevhed72
    kevhed72 Posts: 5,047
    I located an F7 for sale on the Music Room. While the space heater feature is a bit concerning, I am intrigued because I have never owned a pure class A amp. The F7 comes with some mixed reviews on Audiogon, but it seems this may be due to speaker/component pairing. Alas, I will seek the input of my fellow Polkies on this combination:
    Polk L200
    Pair of REL T7 subs
    Dehavilland Ultraverve pre
    MIT s2 and s3 cables throughout.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,609
    As long as you like the pass labs house sound you should be fine.

    I have had a few in and out over the years. If it's old you absolutely will want it to be serviced.

    I've determined they are just not a good match for my Focals
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • kevhed72
    kevhed72 Posts: 5,047
    VR3 wrote: »
    As long as you like the pass labs house sound you should be fine.

    I have had a few in and out over the years. If it's old you absolutely will want it to be serviced.

    I've determined they are just not a good match for my Focals

    How would describe the house sound ?
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,609
    edited October 24
    The x series I have had thru here have all had a slow fat sound that borders on muddy. These are with amps that were serviced

    Ymmv
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,740
    I'd caution against using a relatively low powered Class A amp with a pair of L200. They are not exactly efficient, and they are 4ohm nominal, correct? Doesn't sound like a match in heaven.
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
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  • kevhed72
    kevhed72 Posts: 5,047
    They are 85.5 db efficient I believe.
    FWIW I do most listening at lower volumes these days.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,609
    edited October 24
    I think you need to approach this from a service stand point.

    How old is the amp? 20 to 30 years? Has it ever been serviced? If not you could be looking st 750 to 2500 to fully service some of those old amps.

    This can help determine resale and pricing.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    I always wanted to give one of those amps a go but my speaker choices pretty much ruled them out. Just not enough oomph. Maybe someday if my taste in speakers change.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • maxward
    maxward Posts: 1,573
    First available in 2016, so age is not yet a big factor.
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  • WagnerRC
    WagnerRC Posts: 2,155
    edited October 24
    I have an Aleph J sitting here in near new condition that has a nice sound. I would be willing to make a deal to a long time Polkie at a fair price.


    found this old thread for reference.

    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/199702/review-first-watt-aleph-j-power-amp
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  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,144
    WagnerRC wrote: »
    found this old thread for reference.

    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/199702/review-first-watt-aleph-j-power-amp
    Yep, that's my thread from when I first received my Aleph J (or DIY clone of one). My Mezzo Utopia speakers are 92.5db efficient, and the Aleph J powers them quite sufficiently. The amp did sort of run-out-of-gas at really high volumes, but never went into clipping. My primary listening is folk, singer/songwriter, acoustic, classic rock, and classical, and the Aleph J excels at that - even at lower volumes. It might not do as well with EDM or rap at big volumes.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    Pass Labs and First Watt do not have a "house sound". They are all completely different circuit designs using different parts. Sometimes (especially with First Watt) to achieve different outcomes. You will always hear Nelson saying they each sound different depending on the flavor that suits the listener. "We don't build one amp for everything or everyone, we build several types of amps all sounding different"

    He had semi south make a special run of Static Induction Transistors. He bought they entire lot they made special for his use.

    He's used them all (saving some for future repairs if necessary). The First Watt SIT amps are very highly regarded.

    H9



    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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