Receiver Recommendation for S55's

jsbrown11

Hello - I listen to a lot of electronic music, mainly dubstep and I have a pair of s55's and a s35 center with a svs sb1000 pro sub.

I am definitely missing out a lot of of the mid range growls that I hear on other high end speaker systems. I think my receiver (yamaha rx-381) is too weak to be driving these S55's? I feel like I just don't get a lot of the mid range growls in my music, it's very hard to hear relative to the highs on the speakers.

How much power should I have going to these things to really bring that low/mid range up some? IF I bumped up to a receiver that can drive 140-150 watts, would it bring these s55's to life?

Would love any input here. System sounds pretty good already I just am going down a blackhole and am losing my mind trying to figure out what the answer is.

Thanks!!!

Clipdat

To put it nicely, that current Yamaha receiver you are using is a giant piece of ****.

You need to either get a separate preamp and power amp, or an integrated amplifier with HT bypass.

You will never realize the full potential of the S55s if they are running off of an inexpensive HT receiver versus dedicated outboard amplification or a high quality integrated.

An example of a good high quality and flexible integrated to start off looking into would be the Parasound HINT 6. I know for a fact you would be amazed at how much better it would make those S55s sound, albeit while being fed a quality streaming (ideally lossless, and not BT/wireless) source.

PSOVLSK

Clipdat wrote: »

You will never realize the full potential of the S55s if they are running off of an inexpensive HT receiver...

This is 100% true, but you could definitely improve your sound with a better receiver.

You don’t mention surround, but since you mentioned a center channel speaker I assume this is for an HT system. I’m using a Marantz SR-7008 in my HT and I have no complaints. I have an older Parasound amp that I use as well, but honestly the sound difference with and without the amp is pretty minimal.

AVR’s do not hold their value, so you can probably snag a used one that is much better than your current unit for not a lot of cash.

Sorry, but I can’t offer a recommendation on a new AVR as I haven’t looked at any since I bought the Marantz several years ago.

All that being said, if you can afford to do so, take Clipdat’s advice is you want to hear the speakers at their very best.

jsbrown11

Yea I'm aware that my current AVR blows, that's why I'm here. Ok so, I'm a huge noob venturing into this audiophile world...What is an integrated?

Yea I'm running a 5.1 system currently, sorry I didn't put that in my original post. Running some lower end polk surrounds. All of this is connected to my PC(through optical) and I sometimes game with surround but that isn't much of a concern of mine. I mainly care about music.

I'm still not completely sure what an integrated is, I looked up the hint 6, I'm assuming that's just an amp?

From both of your posts, it sounds like I just need a lot more power to my speakers...Is there anything less than $1000 that would significantly upgrade me? Or are we talking $2-3k to get something worthwhile?

I appreciate your posts! I'm just now diving into this so cut me some slack. I'm going to ask some noob questions!

Thanks!!!

mdaudioguy

There are a couple of Marantz options at the high end of your price range at accessories4less. The SR5015 refurb with 3 year warranty would seem to be a good possibility.

Clipdat's advice was likely based on what would give you great sound from just a pair of S55. The finest solutions are usually separate components - so, a pre-amplifier (usually has at least a volume control) and a separate power amplifier. An integrated amplifier has both functions in one unit. The Hint 6 is a stereo integrated amplifier, so it just has 2 channels to drive a pair of speakers.

The addition of a good separate power amp can do wonders for your setup, even if it's just powering the front 2 or 3 channels. Higher end receivers have pre-outs for bringing some of the advantages of separates to multi-channel home theater. So, a nice receiver like the Marantz is a good option, since it may sound good enough for you on its own, but also allows for further improvements down the road by adding a separate power amp if desired.

msg

How have you got the system set up with respect to the crossover and sub controls?

I'd say maybe first try the tone controls on your current setup to see if the S55s can produce something similar to the sound you're after. It's not ideal, but it could give you a better sense of whether the S55s can provide what you want.

An amp will make the S55s perform significantly better, but if you can't coax some semblance of the sound out of them with tone control, I'm not sure you'll get there with amplification. An amp isn't going to magically give you the sound you imagine you want. An amp will provide greater control of the drivers, resulting in significant improvement in qualities like clarity, bass impact, imaging, decay, and a bunch of other characteristics, but it likely won't significantly change the performance of the speakers' operating frequencies to provide this greater midrange presence you mention.

Milito

I use to own a set of S55's with a S30 center. I drove them with a RX-A2070 rated at 150 watts, 2 channels driven. I also have a HSU subwoofer I used with them. The mid range was to me never that strong with this setup and later I added a B&K 4420 2 channel amp which did improve the sound some, but the mid range was still not what I really wanted. More power will help some, but may not get you to where you want to be with those speakers as far as the mid range.

jsbrown11

Thank you everyone for your responses. I understand a little better now.

It sounds like regardless of what I want to do, getting a better receiver that has pre outs on it is at least a starting point so I can potentially upgrade down the road with an amp.

I will check into those marantz.

Yea I have messed with the crossover and tone controls. Did a deep dive on that yesterday and spent a couple hours tweaking my tone. Definitely got it sounding better, I just know I’m missing a lot right now from a power perspective.

I really appreciate everyone explaining this stuff to me!!!

rooftop59

Denon and Yamaha also make excellent reviewers for dual purpose use: this one has preouts - https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrxa880bl-rb/yamaha-rx-a880-7.2-ch-x-100-watts-a/v-receiver/1.html

msg

Ah, good, so you've been digging in and experimenting. That's really the best way to learn your gear and to learn in general.

You can't go wrong long term by making
the investment in a solid front end for your system now. A beefy, high end integrated or separates, as noted above, will serve you well, but the speaker will be the broadest sweep in achieving the sound signature you're after.

I started off years ago with the Polk RTi10 and spent a lot on different gear, amps, and cables trying to make them work for music, primarily. They never did. Had I started with a better speaker, one for music first and not theater, which I didn't quite understand at the time even though it was pointed out to me by a senior forum member, I probably wouldn't have spent as much trying to make it all work.

What I really needed was to make the jump to a solid music-first speaker in the beginning. It was recommended, but I wasn't there yet in my commitment in the hobby, and it cost me in the long run. I use LSi, LSIM, and vintage Polk now, which were a better fit for music.

I have some S20s in another system, and I like the Signature series for combo use. Way better to my ears than the older RTi series in which I found all other frequencies overrun by the tweeter, resulting in a very thin sounding speaker with narrow range of bass impact. I wish the Signatures were around when I first started.

Also remember that your room setup will play a part in what you hear. Highly reflective surfaces will accentuate highs, and this can make it seem like other frequency ranges are diminished or non-present.

msg

Where is your sub crossed over, anyway? Are your fronts set large or small?

There are a couple of techniques I've learned recently. For cleaner presentation, you can dial down the sub's crossover, and increase its volume. Or, for greater mid to upper bass presence, you can increase the crossover point, and drop back on the volume. This can provide the sense of fuller sound. Go too far up with the crossover and/or volume, and you will make the sub too vocal, and the presentation can sound muddy, congested and flat. It's a balancing act, frustrating sometimes, but when you get it right, it's great.

msg

jsbrown11 wrote: »

Thank you everyone for your responses. I understand a little better now.

It sounds like regardless of what I want to do, getting a better receiver that has pre outs on it is at least a starting point so I can potentially upgrade down the road with an amp.

I will check into those marantz.

Yea I have messed with the crossover and tone controls. Did a deep dive on that yesterday and spent a couple hours tweaking my tone. Definitely got it sounding better, I just know I’m missing a lot right now from a power perspective.

I really appreciate everyone explaining this stuff to me!!!

Definitely hang around and keep us posted. This is fun for us, too.

When you get an amp on those speakers, you will be amazed at the grip and control of the drivers. Bass hits will be so tight and impactful, or example. You'll just stand in front of your speakers in awe of the speed and excursion, and probably worry a bit that the cones are going to tear free and shoot out into the room.

mdaudioguy

For Yamaha, the Aventage line, with the RX-A prefix, is preferred by most. RX-V models are ok at the very top of the line, but generally, the RX-A receivers are a bit more refined. Similarly, for Denon, stick with the AVR-X models. As far as Marantz, virtually any model will sound good.

jsbrown11

Ok awesome thank you guys.

Pretty crazy timing but helping my in-laws move today and they had a sherbourn 1500watt amp laying around they gave me. It’s old but it looks like it may do the trick.

Also gave me a hk6600 as well. I’m assuming this one is older and not powerful enough. The sherbourn 5/1500 weighs about 50lbs. Looks like it can pack a punch.

So now I just need to get a badass receiver with pre outs so I can utilize this. I will check out for some deals on the models y’all listed.

My sub is crossed over at 60 I’m trying to get the low end mid section of these speakers to come up. Fronts are set to small.

Thanks everyone!!!!!

rooftop59

Wowzers that looks like a beast of an amp! Who has something like that just lying around?!? Yep, that looks like it can be the cornerstone of a kick arse dual purpose system for years to come!

jsbrown11

Yea pretty crazy, so the question is now - which receiver? Looking at pre outs on accessories4less...Does sound quality change that much between them? This yamaha A880 and Marantz SR5014 are around the same price, which one is better? They look roughly the same to me on paper, the yamaha is about 50 bucks cheaper though.

Thoughts or concerns before I pull the trigger?

Clipdat

A question that hasn't been asked thus far is, what is your source?

Also, maybe you could post some of the example songs that you are finding lack midrange content. I'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to electronic music, I could listen to them and tell you if there is indeed a lot of midrange content there or not.

I can also confirm it visually as it plays through my DAC:

jsbrown11

Clipdat wrote: »

A question that hasn't been asked thus far is, what is your source?

Also, maybe you could post some of the example songs that you are finding lack midrange content. I'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to electronic music, I could listen to them and tell you if there is indeed a lot of midrange content there or not.

I can also confirm it visually as it plays through my DAC:

well I just had as response typed up and deleted it on accident. sweet. Here's condensed answer.

https://youtu.be/U7dILRnILd4?t=80

So in this song between 1:20-1:50 there are these growls inbetween the melody. On other systems those POP super hard and are awesome to listen to. On my system that is very hard to hear when I turn my volume up. I've tried to combat this by turning my sub volume down and EQ'ing 8k/16k frequencies down which has helped a little bit but it's still not PUNCHY and popping like I heard it on my buddies system. Maybe those aren't mids...I'm a noob, I mainly am just hearing highs and sub base when I turn my system up.

Any recommendation between the yamaha and marantz?

Thanks!

Clipdat

Ok, but before I listen, can you kindly clarify what your usual source of music is when you listen? Is it YouTube?

jsbrown11

Clipdat wrote: »

Ok, but before I listen, can you kindly clarify what your usual source of music is when you listen? Is it YouTube?

sorry - I use spotify connected through my PC via optical cable

PSOVLSK

I bet they would sound awesome on that HK.

jsbrown11

jsbrown11 wrote: »

Clipdat wrote: »

Ok, but before I listen, can you kindly clarify what your usual source of music is when you listen? Is it YouTube?

sorry - I use spotify connected through my PC via optical cable

also have no clue if you are trolling me or not, I was just giving you an example on youtube of the song section I was referring to.

pitdogg2

He's not trolling you.
He is getting clarity

Clipdat

Spotify is 320kbps mp3, so it's not terrible but it's also not lossless. Plus we are at the mercy of whatever mediocre DAC chipset/implementation is inside the Yamaha AVR.

If possible, you should try your listening evaluations with some source material that you are familiar with that is available in lossless FLAC, WAV, AIFF, etc. That way you will have a known baseline, and during testing you will know that your source material is as good as it can be.

So the converter in the Yamaha isn't great and is likely skimming some information there, but the bigger issue is probably still power & dynamics.

I didn't have a chance to take a close look/listen to the specific sounds/samples you referenced in that song, but I will tomorrow. I'll give you more information about what frequencies they are hitting then. But I did notice it's a very complex song with a lot of dynamic shifts. This kind of music will do best with an amplifier that has a better "grip" on the speakers, ie. damping factor, wpc, transformer quality, etc. Several facets will go in to how an amplifier will "control" the speakers.

Personally I have never heard an AVR be able to properly control/drive a pair of speakers. I'm sure there are models out there that do better than others, I just haven't heard them.

As long as those two amps you just acquired are in good working order, might as well give them a try. I would try the H/K first since you don't need a preamp for it. You might be immediately surprised at how much different/better it sounds. It doesn't have a built in DAC, so instead you'll need to run a 3.5mm to L&R RCA cable from your computer to one of it's inputs:

jsbrown11

ok - If I bought one of these marantz AVR's with pre outs would the sherbourn work? Any reason why you are saying to try the HK before the sherbourn? Assuming you're saying I could test a sound diff without having to drop the cash on the new AVR?

I could technically run red white to red white directly into my sound card. I'm running a sound blaster AE9 sound card. Don't think I could run 5 channel audio through that HK though right?

Clipdat

I just suggested the H/K first since you won't need a preamp for it. But essentially your PC is the preamp, especially with that soundcard, so yeah you could run your L&R RCA out directly into the Sherbourn amplifier, just watch that Windows volume control slider.

Surprised you opted to run the optical to the Yamaha and let it's DAC do the conversion when you already have a nice soundcard. By using the optical out you're not letting the Sound Blaster do any of the D to A conversion.

rooftop59

Also, give tidal hifi a try using the free trial. If you like it, you can go to Best Buy online and get a year subscription for $100, which is less per month than Spotify. While CDs through a good player still sound better than tidal, it’s a lot closer than Spotify imho...

jsbrown11

Yea previously since I didn’t have an amp I had to run an optical to get a single signal into my comp from 5 speakers. Was letting the card encode Dolby digital live. Maybe I’m thinking about this incorrectly.

I will try the rca to 3.5mm directly into my sound card through the sherbourn on all 5 speakers and report back.

msg

Yeah, think about it more from source out to destination. It's out of your computer/sound card into a receiver/preamp/processor, then amplified signal out to the speakers.

jsbrown11

ok first report back...Plugged the s55's into sherbourn directly to sound card. Jesus christ, they sound like a completely different speaker. Don't even have my sub plugged in yet and the bass is really solid. I was getting ZERO low end from that old **** yamaha.

Waiting on 3 more rca to 3.5mm cables to come in later so I can get my sub, center, and 2 surrounds plugged in.

So it sounds like there's no reason to me to get a new AVR correct? Unless down the road I wanted to use this for a home theater?

Big thanks to everyone for helping me sort through this.

msg

Hahaha, nice!

To be fair, part of the reason you were getting zero low end in the receiver setup was because the speakers were set small. Still though, even if set large, with that receiver they definitely wouldn't hit as hard and impactful as they are with the amp. You don't get solid control or depth without power and current - the driver response is weaker in a sense, so the sound can be congested and distorted.