Don't like the high cost of gasoline

trubluluc

Move to Iraq.

http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=1&aid=D8318B000_story


Unbelievable!

"Yep, ol' G.W. has a plan...
..and frankly, that's what worries us."

-Luc

mrmusicman

I read an article in the newspaper yesterday saying opec was raising production,but this was not going lower gas prices in the US because of constraints in the refineries!WTF

amulford

The big oil companies are price gouging. It's an oppurtunity for them to realize bigger profits.

To use excuses such as terrorist fears (for the attack in Saudi Arabia) is pure bullsh!t. Even if they take out one pipeline, it will be repaired IMMEDIATELY, and have little impact.

Refining in the States is somewhat restricted. There hasn't been a new refinery built in over 25 years. Yet the population grows, and the demand does increase along with that growth.

We could realize lower prices from Iraq. But they won't be for a while yet. The best I can say is for people to try and limit their use, if possible.

Shizelbs

Sez my fiance who's father works in a refinery some of the price changes are a result from an increased demand in China and political instability in Venezuala.

HBombToo

Originally posted by Shizelbs
Sez my fiance who's father works in a refinery some of the price changes are a result from an increased demand in China and political instability in Venezuala.

This is consistant with what I have read.

Not to say that our distribution for Iraq is not a contributor.

HBomb

pjdami

Refining in the States is somewhat restricted. There hasn't been a new refinery built in over 25 years. Yet the population grows, and the demand does increase along with that growth.

What's holding back the construction of new refineries? Anybody know? The environmentalists?

I used to work in a M.W. Kellog designed ammonia plant. I had the honor ( I guess) of shutting it down, decontamination, and part of the dismantling from a process standpoint. Most of the ammonia production has gone south to Trinidad / Venezuela where nat. gas prices are cheap.

I see a growing trend where industry is leaving the United States which is alarming. So I'm just wondering why no new refineries? Shucks I live within 25 miles of 4 large refineries and the cost of gas here is over $2 / gallon.

Shizelbs

Originally posted by pjdami
Shucks I live within 25 miles of 4 large refineries and the cost of gas here is over $2 / gallon.

Same thing just north of Seattle.

nadams

There's obviously gouging to a point. All the local stations around here are at 1.99/gal. But just north theres a little town where you can pick it up for 1.74/gal. The newspaper wrote an article about it recently along with an interview from the station managers, and basically they said that they're charging a very cheap (relatively) price for the same fuel as everyone else, but still making a decent profit on it...

HBombToo

Originally posted by pjdami
So I'm just wondering why no new refineries?

its all about hydrogen IMHO.

1/2twin

mrmusicman

Its all about $2.65 a gallon where I live in central ,ca.:mad:

Shizelbs

Originally posted by HBombToo
its all about hydrogen IMHO.

1/2twin

Are you saying there is pressure to keep the number of refineries down to help bring hydrogen fuel to market?

pjdami

Yeah, whatcha talking bout there Hbomb? Hydrogen as a new fuel source or hydrogen that refineries currently use?

Hydrogen is just the front end of the ammonia plant where I worked minus the nitrogen injection from air in the secondary reformer. Hydrogen is commonly made from steam reforming natural gas over a nickel catalyst.

With the high price of natural gas and the huge amount of CO2 gas that is made as a by-product of the hydrogen process (carbon dioxide is hypothesized to be a greenhouse gas), I can see where the hydrogen balance may be in a pinch as well.

The dilemma with a new hydrogen fuel is just that. You need natural gas and then you have a by product CO2 which is not favorable. Hydrogen could also be seperated from sea water but that uses a ton of electricity which is made primarily from natural gas too in a power plant (unless of course its a nuclear plant).

Man I like the matter - antimatter concept for future energy, but I'll be long gone probably before it happens.

amulford

Originally posted by pjdami
What's holding back the construction of new refineries? Anybody know? The environmentalists?

I used to work in a M.W. Kellog designed ammonia plant. I had the honor ( I guess) of shutting it down, decontamination, and part of the dismantling from a process standpoint. Most of the ammonia production has gone south to Trinidad / Venezuela where nat. gas prices are cheap.

I see a growing trend where industry is leaving the United States which is alarming. So I'm just wondering why no new refineries? Shucks I live within 25 miles of 4 large refineries and the cost of gas here is over $2 / gallon.

It's a combination of things. One is enviromentalists. Even though the EPA is extremely tough on standards, even more so on transgression, it's always a "Not in MY neighborhood" mentality..

For example, BP wants to build a LNG importing and regasification facility nearby on some land that is pretty much not in use, nor very useful. It is at the junction of 5 major pipelines and would double the available natural gas for the entire northeastern United States. There are permits being sought, the prelim. designs are outstanding for the facility. A few people are fighting it. Why? See above.

Another is economics. it is a very big investment to build a refinery. The big oil companies don't want to make it. They might if there was some incentive, IE such as forcing them to. But as it stands, they get to use it as an excuse to drive up prices. This isn't true for all of them, but for the majority it is.

Many things need to be done. The car manufacturers need to build more efficient engines. Who do you think stops that from happening????

There is alot to it....

AsSiMiLaTeD

Cold Fusion

jcaut

Alcohol!

trubluluc

Brazil...yeah I know you're thinking Samba and naked babes and...all true mind you, but they also have a great solution to the oil crunch:
Alcohol fueled vehicles.

I was in brazil back in the late 80's and this system worked, and had alot of benefits:

Much cleaner running....so less pollution.
Weaned the country off crude oil..which they couldn't afford to buy from the middle east.
Check out these links:

http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1313810
http://www.tierramerica.net/english/2003/0825/iacentos.shtml

Our American farmers can out produce any ten other countries. Most of the after product is just chucked. If the we as a country got behind this program, we could tell the Middle East to take a flying leap in a steaming pile of camel ****.

Only one problem:
Standard oil, Exxon and the boys aren't going to like giving up 200% profits, and the ability to ransom our money from us at the gas pump.
And.....the oil companies have friends in HIGH places...or should I say HIGH offices?

-Luc

jcaut

As a car enthusiast, I thought about this alot back when I was in college. Did some research and reports on alternative fuels for some of my tech comp. classes when I was in EE. If I remember correctly (and that was several years ago) the biggest downsides to alcohol fuels were really the result of gasoline being so cheap: It cost more to produce alcohols, especially when you consider that the BTU content is roughly half. If gasoline goes and stays much higher, then I think alcohol might deserve a re-think.

You can make if from most anything. It does burn clean, better than gasoline in most everything except maybe NOx. The modifications necessary to make it work in current vehicles aren't too costly, etc., etc. I think it's the most viable alternative fuel in the near future.

Just imagine how our relationship with the Middle East would change if we didn't use so much oil....

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by trubluluc

Standard oil, Exxon and the boys aren't going to like giving up 200% profits, and the ability to ransom our money from us at the gas pump.
And.....the oil companies have friends in HIGH places...or should I say HIGH offices?

-Luc

What do you think happened to Cold Fusion?

Seriously, I've seen tons of evidence and two real world applications that prove CF as a viable option of energy. I'm sure the CEO for Exxon or whatever **** in his pants back in 1989 when Pons and Fleischman released their findings. True, their experiments were flawed, but room temperature fusion remians to this day an excellent option (although relatively undiscovered) of energy production.

Hell, even if they could get just regular nuclear fusion (you know, this stuff at 4 billion degrees) working, we'd be better off becuase that relatively clean and safe...need bigger magnets...

But the problem is that both options above could have serious ramifications for the world market...blah blah blah...

amulford

Very true. Cold fusion would probably be a great alternative, if a way could be found that's foolproof.

Gasohol is still being considered, but the costs to produce the alcohol won't help, and the btu count doesn't help with the inefficient engines.

You still have to fight the friends in high places, but that discussion will wind up in the political forum...;)

ch47d

I have been in Iraq for 14 months, haven't paid a dime for gas, and it still ain't worth it!

I-SIG

Thermal De-polymerization.

Wes

HBombToo

Originally posted by pjdami


The dilemma with a new hydrogen fuel is just that. You need natural gas and then you have a by product CO2 which is not favorable. Hydrogen could also be seperated from sea water but that uses a ton of electricity which is made primarily from natural gas too in a power plant (unless of course its a nuclear plant).

I was suggesting Hydrogen in my ignorance because I did not know these facts... I have to wonder why Bush suggested a few years past on setting aside a billion for Natural gas development?

I'm confused

HBomb

swerve

didn't read the article @ the top, but gas dropped 20 cents here, now it's under 2 dollars and people are flocking to the gas station. What I have realized is all these gas stations will keep lowering and lowering their price to beat the next guy. It goes down atleast 1-2 cents a day here because of competition.

-adam