Rogue RP-7 vs Primaluna Evo 400 vs no preamp at all
phipiper10
Posts: 955
I have had a Rogue 99 Magnum w/phono preamp for more than 10 years but time has come for us to part ways. I had a Rogue ST90 and now a ST100. Needless to say a Rogue Preamp was at the top of my list. I won’t say I searched far and wide but I did demo a Primaluna Evo 400 and a Rogue RP-7. If you want to stop reading here – the Rogue won.
In reality I was really comparing both the PL and the Rogue against the Lumin T2 being plugged directly into the ST100. So in some ways it was a three way preamp shootout with only two Preamps!
This whole thing came about one day when I came across a thread of Lumin owners that plug directly into amps with good results. It was worth trying ….and wow it was incredible! All the veils bla bla, wider soundstage, more accurate and DYNAMIC as hell! Problem is I have a TT and going direct to an amp from the Lumin would be a small hassle to switch sources. Easy enough to overcome but plugging and unplugging from the equipment over the long run doesn’t seem like a great solution. In any case I had already had the Rogue demo lined up and then from a separate dealer was able to take home the PL for the same weekend. To this point I hadn’t done much critical listening to the Preampless Lumin. I’m in this room most of the day working from home but I am actually focused on work and not critical listening but there was no mistaking what took place when I removed the 99.
Listening Sessions:
Setup was as in the signature. Rogue Amp was in Triode mode and no custom processing from Roon or the Lumin was taking place. Both pieces had stock tubes. I reconciled differences in volume between pieces using Radioshack SPL meter to what is close enough for this pseudoscientific work! Tracks used below and generally the same order each time. I listened to the equipment as follows:
Day 1: PL, Lumin>Amp, RP7
Day 2: RP7, Lumin>Amp (No PL)
Hello - Adele, Sea Change - Beck, So Far Away and Money for Nothing – Dire Straits
Dreams and the Chain – Fleetwood Mac, Angel – Sarah Mclachlan, Sun Toucher – Groove Armada, Might as Well Get Stoned – Chris Stapleton, Sledgehammer – Peter Gabriel
Here We Go Again – Ray Charles/Norah Jones, Get Lucky = Daft Punk/Pharrell
Sigma Oasis – Phish, Shoot To Thrill – AC/DC, Speak to me Breath – Pink Floyd
Nightingale – Norah Jones, Circles - Mac Miller
I won’t go through a song by song account, I summarized some thoughts and aggregated my notes from both days.
PrimaLuna Evo 400
PL sounds beautiful, smooth and easy, maybe a little compressed….a narrow range for the music to work in dynamically speaking. Very quiet background. It was sure and confident in what it did – classy! I would call it just a little warm and rich but not soupy or thick and certainly never fatiguing. Bass was always full and round and in some cases too large and disconnected from the mids and highs. It wasn’t fully expressive, lacking explosiveness in some passages. To my ears it was just a little too confined/refined and polite. Remember I had been casually listening to the Lumin direct in to the amp the prior few days.
PL Misc. notes I took on different tracks:
Missing drum slam, voice not fully expressive, piano soft and beautiful, defined and localized vocals, missing some dynamics, is her voice a little congested, robust round bass, top doesn’t rival low end, 2.5 dimensional, vocals are saccharin, not sweet, vocals are chill, is Norah flat?, vocals are close just missing intimacy
The Evo was a very clear step-up up from my 99 but the 99 and the PL probably had more in common than not from a sonic signature perspective. It is certainly more refined with better imaging and blacker background but only bested the 99 by a small margin in the way of dynamics and soundstage.
Lumin>Amp
This was system altering the first time I plugged the Lumin directly in even if I hadn’t done much critical listening. I thought for the first time, “Wow I have a system that I think could be in a listening room at my local dealer.” I have a bunch of bad audiophile analogies like, it was like going from black and white to color TV or it was like, I was driving around on fully inflated tires after being underinflated by 15 psi… or something like that... I will also say I was so excited about how dynamic things were on day one I was indeed looking past some shortcomings that I couldn’t articulate until day two when I listened again. It was specifically some extra energy or what seemed like volume transients in the music that pushed out into the stage at times unexpectedly. It wasn’t bothersome but noticeable several times. The fact that it was revealing was fine, the notes were still round and smooth (thanks to the amp and speakers) and I never felt it was fatiguing even at the volumes I was listening at. Some tracks with revealing recordings of vocalist too close to mics signing too loud, well that imperfect recording was on full display and that is not a problem for me. I made bold a couple of the notes that I didn’t piece together or understand until after really reading the notes at the end of day 2.
Lumin>Amp Misc. notes
Voice texture, heartbeat is present, even background vocals are expressive, full space occupied now, big open, full wall of sounds, notes clear and spacious, snare more snappy, SCREAMS INTO GUITAR – WE ARE ROCKING! Less fat on the bass-solid mixed appropriately. Just a bit more forward, closer, can climb out at you, Rhythm guitar now audible, pick tapping is distinct. Picking of classical guitar is beautiful. Vocals blossomed, too revealing of the vocal but vocal is really too much for the mic – this is real, MC voice texture, snarly in guitar not previously noticed, strong clear bass, balanced top to bottom, there is music here, extra energy, hearing the recording, presence and balance, guitar strumming where did that come from, Big Aggressive,
RP7
Just right! The PL just wasn’t enough, the Lumin direct was incredible but had a minor issue which I could have lived with. The RP7 seemed to clean up those few small idiosyncrasies of the Lumin direct in to the amp while giving me everything I liked about that experience. It took almost nothing away, maybe 2% was lost but that seemed perfect as in the process it cleaned up the loose ends, solidified the soundstage while remaining dynamic, large with proper amounts of bass. The background was not as black as the Primaluna but the surrounding music of the PL was also significantly darker. For my system this was right and I suppose not surprising cause, you know….synergy and all with the Rogues. I was able to confirm how close the RP7 was to the source which is probably what I was most impressed with. Yet it still applied just a pinch of that tube magic and balanced things out to near perfect. I was so engaged with the music throughout these sessions I just couldn’t get enough. Listening to the Lumin direct and with the RP7 was awesome.
RP7 Misc. notes
Clear, quite big, big expansive, super wide soundstage – almost 90*, real drums, more impact and realism, more weight, heft in the kick drum, moving with force when instruments converge, clear and balanced, smoother easier? letting it relax A little off that rhythm guitar (from amp), real cymbal crashes still, clear and quick, is something going on here in taming of previously mentioned wild dynamics, still a screaming guitar solo but a little off the synth on next track, mids teased out just a bit? Drums have swagger, smirking this song is wild and fresh and new, most enjoyable version, big air and space, not bass shy, not taking anything audible away but made the last vocal easier.
Now the bad news, I need a phono pre and balanced cables! Thanks for indulging me!
Rich
In reality I was really comparing both the PL and the Rogue against the Lumin T2 being plugged directly into the ST100. So in some ways it was a three way preamp shootout with only two Preamps!
This whole thing came about one day when I came across a thread of Lumin owners that plug directly into amps with good results. It was worth trying ….and wow it was incredible! All the veils bla bla, wider soundstage, more accurate and DYNAMIC as hell! Problem is I have a TT and going direct to an amp from the Lumin would be a small hassle to switch sources. Easy enough to overcome but plugging and unplugging from the equipment over the long run doesn’t seem like a great solution. In any case I had already had the Rogue demo lined up and then from a separate dealer was able to take home the PL for the same weekend. To this point I hadn’t done much critical listening to the Preampless Lumin. I’m in this room most of the day working from home but I am actually focused on work and not critical listening but there was no mistaking what took place when I removed the 99.
Listening Sessions:
Setup was as in the signature. Rogue Amp was in Triode mode and no custom processing from Roon or the Lumin was taking place. Both pieces had stock tubes. I reconciled differences in volume between pieces using Radioshack SPL meter to what is close enough for this pseudoscientific work! Tracks used below and generally the same order each time. I listened to the equipment as follows:
Day 1: PL, Lumin>Amp, RP7
Day 2: RP7, Lumin>Amp (No PL)
Hello - Adele, Sea Change - Beck, So Far Away and Money for Nothing – Dire Straits
Dreams and the Chain – Fleetwood Mac, Angel – Sarah Mclachlan, Sun Toucher – Groove Armada, Might as Well Get Stoned – Chris Stapleton, Sledgehammer – Peter Gabriel
Here We Go Again – Ray Charles/Norah Jones, Get Lucky = Daft Punk/Pharrell
Sigma Oasis – Phish, Shoot To Thrill – AC/DC, Speak to me Breath – Pink Floyd
Nightingale – Norah Jones, Circles - Mac Miller
I won’t go through a song by song account, I summarized some thoughts and aggregated my notes from both days.
PrimaLuna Evo 400
PL sounds beautiful, smooth and easy, maybe a little compressed….a narrow range for the music to work in dynamically speaking. Very quiet background. It was sure and confident in what it did – classy! I would call it just a little warm and rich but not soupy or thick and certainly never fatiguing. Bass was always full and round and in some cases too large and disconnected from the mids and highs. It wasn’t fully expressive, lacking explosiveness in some passages. To my ears it was just a little too confined/refined and polite. Remember I had been casually listening to the Lumin direct in to the amp the prior few days.
PL Misc. notes I took on different tracks:
Missing drum slam, voice not fully expressive, piano soft and beautiful, defined and localized vocals, missing some dynamics, is her voice a little congested, robust round bass, top doesn’t rival low end, 2.5 dimensional, vocals are saccharin, not sweet, vocals are chill, is Norah flat?, vocals are close just missing intimacy
The Evo was a very clear step-up up from my 99 but the 99 and the PL probably had more in common than not from a sonic signature perspective. It is certainly more refined with better imaging and blacker background but only bested the 99 by a small margin in the way of dynamics and soundstage.
Lumin>Amp
This was system altering the first time I plugged the Lumin directly in even if I hadn’t done much critical listening. I thought for the first time, “Wow I have a system that I think could be in a listening room at my local dealer.” I have a bunch of bad audiophile analogies like, it was like going from black and white to color TV or it was like, I was driving around on fully inflated tires after being underinflated by 15 psi… or something like that... I will also say I was so excited about how dynamic things were on day one I was indeed looking past some shortcomings that I couldn’t articulate until day two when I listened again. It was specifically some extra energy or what seemed like volume transients in the music that pushed out into the stage at times unexpectedly. It wasn’t bothersome but noticeable several times. The fact that it was revealing was fine, the notes were still round and smooth (thanks to the amp and speakers) and I never felt it was fatiguing even at the volumes I was listening at. Some tracks with revealing recordings of vocalist too close to mics signing too loud, well that imperfect recording was on full display and that is not a problem for me. I made bold a couple of the notes that I didn’t piece together or understand until after really reading the notes at the end of day 2.
Lumin>Amp Misc. notes
Voice texture, heartbeat is present, even background vocals are expressive, full space occupied now, big open, full wall of sounds, notes clear and spacious, snare more snappy, SCREAMS INTO GUITAR – WE ARE ROCKING! Less fat on the bass-solid mixed appropriately. Just a bit more forward, closer, can climb out at you, Rhythm guitar now audible, pick tapping is distinct. Picking of classical guitar is beautiful. Vocals blossomed, too revealing of the vocal but vocal is really too much for the mic – this is real, MC voice texture, snarly in guitar not previously noticed, strong clear bass, balanced top to bottom, there is music here, extra energy, hearing the recording, presence and balance, guitar strumming where did that come from, Big Aggressive,
RP7
Just right! The PL just wasn’t enough, the Lumin direct was incredible but had a minor issue which I could have lived with. The RP7 seemed to clean up those few small idiosyncrasies of the Lumin direct in to the amp while giving me everything I liked about that experience. It took almost nothing away, maybe 2% was lost but that seemed perfect as in the process it cleaned up the loose ends, solidified the soundstage while remaining dynamic, large with proper amounts of bass. The background was not as black as the Primaluna but the surrounding music of the PL was also significantly darker. For my system this was right and I suppose not surprising cause, you know….synergy and all with the Rogues. I was able to confirm how close the RP7 was to the source which is probably what I was most impressed with. Yet it still applied just a pinch of that tube magic and balanced things out to near perfect. I was so engaged with the music throughout these sessions I just couldn’t get enough. Listening to the Lumin direct and with the RP7 was awesome.
RP7 Misc. notes
Clear, quite big, big expansive, super wide soundstage – almost 90*, real drums, more impact and realism, more weight, heft in the kick drum, moving with force when instruments converge, clear and balanced, smoother easier? letting it relax A little off that rhythm guitar (from amp), real cymbal crashes still, clear and quick, is something going on here in taming of previously mentioned wild dynamics, still a screaming guitar solo but a little off the synth on next track, mids teased out just a bit? Drums have swagger, smirking this song is wild and fresh and new, most enjoyable version, big air and space, not bass shy, not taking anything audible away but made the last vocal easier.
Now the bad news, I need a phono pre and balanced cables! Thanks for indulging me!
Rich
Analog Source: Rega P3-24 Exact 2 w/GT delrin platter & Neo TT-PSU Digital Source: Lumin T2 w/Roon (NUC) DAC: Denafrips Pontus II Phono Preamp: Rega Aria MK3 Preamp: Rogue RP-7 Amp: Pass X150.8 Speakers: Joseph Audio Perspective 2, Audio Physic Tempo Plus Cables: Morrow M4 ICs & Audio Art SC-5 ePlus, Shunyata PCs Misc: Shunyata Hydra Delta D6, VTI rack, GIK acoustic panels
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