Can you have too much power

rburgess714
rburgess714 Posts: 616
edited November 2020 in 2 Channel Audio
I know it sounds ludicrous but can you have too much power? My new integrated sounds so good to me but I have barely got the volume knob to 10 o’clock and it gets really loud. Just really good clean power. So much that I wonder if it is overkill and I would be just as satisfied less? Is this just crazy talk?

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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    To me it sounds like you are describing the gain structure of the preamp and the implementation of the volume control, moreso than the amount of wpc on tap.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,546
    Crazy talk
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

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  • rburgess714
    rburgess714 Posts: 616
    Clipdat wrote: »
    To me it sounds like you are describing the gain structure of the preamp and the implementation of the volume control, moreso than the amount of wpc on tap.

    I don’t think there is any fault with the design or implementation of the gain structure but honestly don’t know much about that. I’m more second guessing how much power I thought I needed. It’s a wonderful piece but I probably could have been just as satisfied with the M5 which has a bit less power and less coin.

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  • rburgess714
    rburgess714 Posts: 616
    F1nut wrote: »
    Crazy talk

    Ok, that makes feel better :)
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    edited November 2020
    rburgess714 wrote: »
    It’s a wonderful piece but I probably could have been just as satisfied with the M5 which has a bit less power and less coin.

    I would politely disagree with that assessment, as there are many elements that go into the design of the amplifier which arguably have a more audible impact than the total amount of watts per channel.

    Even though your M6si delivers 220wpc, you very well could only be using 1 watt or less for average listening levels. Of course it will exceed 1 watt for transient peaks and dynamic swings.

    This is why the "first watt" and the overall design of the amplifier itself matters so much more than the wpc rating.
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    edited November 2020
    Unfortunately the watts per channel gets way too much importance thanks to certain (ex)-member(s) here who used to repeat like gospel that you need at least "200 watts per channel". I strongly feel that advice like this only serves to alienate and intimidate people who are new to the hobby.
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  • rburgess714
    rburgess714 Posts: 616
    Clipdat wrote: »
    rburgess714 wrote: »
    It’s a wonderful piece but I probably could have been just as satisfied with the M5 which has a bit less power and less coin.

    I would politely disagree with that assessment, as there are many elements that go into the design of the amplifier which arguably have a more audible impact than the total amount of watts per channel.

    Even though your M6si delivers 220wpc, you very well could only be using 1 watt or less for average listening levels. Of course it will exceed 1 watt for transient peaks and dynamic swings.

    This is why the "first watt" and the overall design of the amplifier itself matters so much more than the wpc rating.

    No worries, feel free to disagree I am 4 years or so in the rabbit hole and still getting my learn on. I understand the importance of the first watt but if it's the same manufacture and series only a step down in power from 220 to 150 wouldn't that 1st watt be the same?
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    edited November 2020
    Not particularly, because in this case other elements of the amplifier's design change as well. (damping factor, current, thd, s/n ratio)

    M6si:
    v68udrb9mxzh.png

    M5si:
    406112ukj7d6.png

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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Personally, I don't think you can have too much power, but you definitely can have too little power. It all depends on how efficient your speakers are, the type of music being played, and how loud you want the music too be played. Granted, as mentioned above, only a few watts are usually used, but clean reproduction of transients can require a lot of power. My amps are rated at 1200 watts/channel with 4 ohm speakers. I very rarely ever play my stereo so loud that the SPL is in the 90s, or higher, but when I do it sounds as good as at a lower volume.
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    Is it kinda like driving a 100hp car at 35mph and a 600hp car at 35mph? It'll probably feel the same, except for when you hit the gas to accelerate?
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  • rburgess714
    rburgess714 Posts: 616
    Clipdat wrote: »
    Is it kinda like driving a 100hp car at 35mph and a 600hp car at 35mph? It'll probably feel the same, except for when you hit the gas to accelerate?

    Great analogy!
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,413
    I learned to day that yes, you can have too much power. 1100db is enough sound to actually create my very own universe-killing Black Hole. Every man needs something to strive for, and now I have mine! :p
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,546
    edited November 2020
    Very interesting that the 5 has a higher p2p current rating than the 6.

    Other than the ability to play louder, higher powered amps produce a fuller sound at lower volume levels.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,546
    edited November 2020
    Clipdat wrote: »
    Is it kinda like driving a 100hp car at 35mph and a 600hp car at 35mph? It'll probably feel the same, except for when you hit the gas to accelerate?

    They sure as hell won't sound the same at idle or speed.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,365
    Clipdat wrote: »
    Not particularly, because in this case other elements of the amplifier's design change as well. (damping factor, current, thd, s/n ratio)

    M6si:
    v68udrb9mxzh.png

    M5si:
    406112ukj7d6.png

    Damping factor is overrated, you don't need that much to be effective.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    I’m in the camp of better watts trump more power. But you need to meet a threshold of watts as well.
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  • smglbrth
    smglbrth Posts: 1,471
    I am way far from an expert obviously, but, I think it depends on a whole lot of various other tools in the loop. People rave all the time about the Marantz of old, amongst other makers. Back then the "watts" were in the mid range around 40 watts/channel or so? You had your bigger ones too but most weren't 100+ watts/channel. I think you have the best of both worlds in the M6si as far as quality watts and watts/channel...
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    invalid wrote: »
    Damping factor is overrated, you don't need that much to be effective.

    Here's an informative article about that: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/audio-myth-damping-factor-isnt-much-of-a-factor
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  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,892
    t1mnt8fj8zfb.jpg
    zd8fu66tol9x.jpg
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,801
    Depends totally and utterly on the loudspeakers.
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  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,892
    Did you check with Lord Acton?
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,365
    Clipdat wrote: »
    invalid wrote: »
    Damping factor is overrated, you don't need that much to be effective.

    Here's an informative article about that: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/audio-myth-damping-factor-isnt-much-of-a-factor

    If damping factor was so important, than why do vintage krell amps have damping factors of only around 150 but they can produce more bass than most amps that have a damping factor of almost 1000.
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    Did you read the article?
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,365
    Clipdat wrote: »
    Did you read the article?

    Some of it. I just don't think it's an issue with most solid state amps.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,546
    The article basically reinforces the notion that a very low damping factor is not desirable and there's no need for a very high damping factor, which IIRC is often obtained by tons of negative feedback. Other than that, it's a product promotion.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    Every amplifier manufacturer thinks that their way/approach is the best way.

    I still think the article is a worthwhile read, if you learn one or two things from it like I did.
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,365
    According to Ralph karsten, there is no speaker made that needs a damping factor more than a 20 times ratio.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,013
    edited November 2020
    silly joke
    I disabled signatures.
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,489
    If someone has a pair of very high efficiency horn speakers and a first gen Emotiva amp or a promamp that is a case of too much gain and too much noise. Probably not too much power though if the volume control can still be modulated. A low noise low power tube amp would be better. That’s an extreme example.
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  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,414
    ju445b4egf2a.jpeg
    It's possible...
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